We all love the Feudal Holdings Act

[Ari Rahikkala]

... but we're going to have to do something about the population criteria. And I can't think of anything sensible. The only idea I've had so far is to declare the current duchies "permanent for now" and make dukes go through the Landsraad to appoint barons... but that's not really desirable. So, um, does anybody have any ideas?

[Andreas the Wise]

That sounds reasonable. If you want, you could also redefine voting stuff in this act - something that comes to mind for me is giving Dukes more "votes" than Barons (so new citizens can also do something as Barons) - like a Duke's vote counts as 3, a Baron's vote as 1, and the Kaiser's as 5 or something.

[Harald of Froyalan]

Declare the current Duchies permanent and if a Duke wants appoint a Baron (s)he must obtain the approval of the Kaiser.

[Kaiser Mors V]

I kinda like that last idea. But no votes for Barons. And leave the dukes at 1 vote. And just outright remove the duchy criteria... just strip the section down to bare bones... A lot of those old laws are just complex and useless now, and part of why I think previous attempts at restoration have failed..

My oppinion is that we must removed anything from the old days and laws that are in our way now. Return the really early days.. when Dukes votes only.. and things were simple...

[benkern]

I agree with Harald and Erik. I believe all unnecessary complication will only hinder progress. We cannot waste time and energy when it comes to the revival of Great Shireroth!

[Jonas]

I agree.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Allright, allright! I'll draft something up later today... it's just that as far as I can see, we should a) *either* disallow dukes from appointing barons, *or* b) not give barons the right to vote in Landsraad....

[Kaiser Mors V]

Or both for now...

Ari.. wanna be Steward? You are already with how incredibly much you've been doing...

[Ari Rahikkala]

I'd rather not... it's just... I make a nice ad-hoc organiser and technical worker, I guess, but... no, really, I've got to turn this one down. I'm still too worried about the future for it. Maybe if we managed to recruit a few new nifty and stable-looking citizens first...

[Andreas the Wise]

Allright, allright! I'll draft something up later today... it's just that as far as I can see, we should a) *either* disallow dukes from appointing barons, *or* b) not give barons the right to vote in Landsraad....

Just don't give Barons power in the Landsraad ...
Or the power to comment, but not vote.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Anyway, just as a reminder, I do still want to be the MiniEx. It's just the position of the Steward that I find... not right at the moment .

Oh, and here's the bill as I see it:

0. This bill amends LawBook Chapters II and III.
1. Chapter II section C shall be stricken and replaced with the following:

C. Creation

1. Duchies
a. Duchies may be created from Shirithian land by the Kaiser at will.
b. Duchies may by created from Shirithian land by full consensus of the Landsraad.
2. Baronies
a. Baronies may be created from Shirithian land by the Kaiser at will, and placed under any Duchy.
b. Baronies may be created from Shirithian land by a simple majority of the Landsraad. They may be placed under any Duchy with the agreement of its Duke.
3. Promotion
a. The procedure for the promotion of a Barony to a Duchy shall follow the criteria and procedures for the creation of a new Duchy.

2. Chapter II section D shall be stricken and replaced with the following:

D. Destruction

1. Duchies
a. A Duchy may be dissolved by the Kaiser at will.
b. A Duchy may be dissolved by full consensus of the Landsraad.
2. Baronies
a. A Barony may be dissolved by the Kaiser at will.
b. A Barony may be dissolved by a simple majority of the Landsraad.

3. Chapter II section E shall be stricken.

4. Chapter III section A shall be stricken and replaced with the following:

A. Dukes
1. Powers granted
a. Any Duke has complete power to do whatever zie wishes within zir Duchy, within zir restrictions.
b. Any Duke may place restrictions upon Barons within zir Duchy.
c. All Dukes are members of the Landsraad, with the privileges and duties enumerated in the Procedures of the Landsraad.
2. Restrictions
a. No Duke may violate Imperial law.
b. No Duke may conduct significant foreign policy.
c. No Duke may call for the overthrow of the government.
d. No Duke may secede from Shireroth.
e. A Duke's powers affect only zir Duchy and those within.
f. No Duke may enter a military alliance with another Duke.

5. Chapter III section D shall be stricken and replaced with the following:

D. Appointing Barons
1. A Baron may be appointed to a Barony by the Kaiser or a simple majority of the Landsraad.

6. Chapter III section F shall be stricken and replaced with the following:

F. Removing Barons
1. A Baron may be removed by the Kaiser or a simple majority of the Landsraad.

[Ari Rahikkala]

I'd like to ask you once more... with this bill, barons become small-time players with no voice in the Landsraad anyway - so why bother going through the Landsraad to appoint them? My plan is that unless there are no other problems with the form of this bill, I will present it to the Landsraad *without* parts 5 and 6, and if someone presents the bill in this form, I'm going to vote *against* it.

[Kaiser Mors V]

As long as Barons get no vote or power in the Landsraad I don't see why a Duke can't appoint Barons. As well as dismiss them and dissolve a barony.

[Andreas the Wise]

As a Feudal system, it makes a lot more sense if Dukes appoint their own Barons, rather than the Landsraad.

[Kaiser Mors V]

It's also the traditional way of things...

[Harald of Froyalan]

As a Feudal system, it makes a lot more sense if Dukes appoint their own Barons, rather than the Landsraad.

Indeed.

[Jacobus Loki]

What if Dukes appoint Barons, with the Landsraad (and of course the Kaiser) having a veto?

[Kaiser Mors V]

Or just take them out of the system... which the Bill in the LAndsraad seems to be doing..

[Jonas]

I want my Barons

[Kaiser Mors V]

I have plans for them.. so I want them too.. in the long run..

Recruit people.. then we can justify them..

[Andreas the Wise]

I want my Barons

Including me *hint hint*

[Jonas]

Including me *hint hint*