I call... a charterial convention!

[Erik Mortis]

But it doesn't hurt.

[Jacobus Loki]

1 - Mike, wait until you are Kaiser, and want to fix something important!

2-

Considering I've been trying to get onto the throne for 3 Kaiserships to fix the Charter....

Erik, you never would have needed the Kaisership to do that. Your were asked to advise what needed to be done. You wanted to wait. See what happens?

[Erik Mortis]

You cannot NOT put this on me. How dare you try to put your fuck up on me! *is actually angry now...*

[Jacobus Loki]

Its not a f--k up, and I'm not putting it on you.

(Well, If it WAS a f--k up, the f--k up part was dumping the over-active firestorm on Corey. As Steward, it would have fallen on him anyway, as I expect to loose all web access by tomorrow, so better he should have the power to act without fear.)

The second comment was humor.

What I'm putting on you is that you had worthy proposals to put forward, and did not put them forward, expecting to have to do it all yourself. That is a separate issue. A mild disappointment, but, meh.

Erik, you never would have needed the Kaisership to do that. Your were asked to advise what needed to be done. You wanted to wait.

(Above, comment and mild criticism.)

See what happens?

(Above, lame attempt at diffusing with humor.)

You are the Founder, but you do not need to be the Lone Ranger. We care too. We may not agree, but we care. Sharing your unique perspectives in a timely fashion might be more advisable than expecting to have to take it all on yourself.

I'm sorry that you are angry.

No matter how many emoticons are invented, a post is a clumsy way to express nuances.

[Erik Mortis]

I retract my anger...

But I take the Charter personally. I wrote it to be the core, and tos unchanging as possible. It is the core of my vision. And no matter what happens in the Lawbook, and decrees, as long as the core is unchanges, I can leave things along, and relax. Change the charter, and I start to care. Especially when yout put thing in that should NOT be in it...

I'm also kinda drunk...

[Ari Rahikkala]

This isn't me participating... but... due to this I finally decided to start working on the charter I plan to put into place when I'm finally made Kaiser.

http://www.shireroth.org/shirewiki/Erik ... rter_draft

Ari, if you wanna fix the grammar for me. I'd be fine with it. But I don't want anyone to mess with it.

And I still oppose this convention.

http://www.shireroth.org/wiki/index.php ... oldid=6969

That should take care of most of the grammar, punctuation, sentence structure, and layout problems I found. I also removed all instances of the annoying "and/or" construction, though I don't know if anyone else was annoyed by it...

I'm not sure I caught every male pronoun - I tried to, though. We've got gender-neutral pronouns in Shireroth and I like using them .

I'll have a look at what it actually *says*... probably later tonight. What I caught while checking the technical stuff seemed good, though...

[Ari Rahikkala]

I am adding two words to my draft that I believe are of great importance "and Arbiter".

I have concluded that as Shireroth now functions, with the way we now look to the Judex for council and advice on deeply legal issues, the Arbiter should be included with the Praetor in giving consent to Amendments.

I understand why you'd want to have this, but I oppose it in principle anyway (though it sure took me a while to sort my principles out here.. :/).

The Charter is, in essence, a product of the cooperation of the Imperial court and of the Dukes convened. The Kaiser is an agent of the former, the Praetor of the latter. They're clearly separate parties, both with their own, possibly diverging interests. The amendment process demands the minimum hassle and bureaucracy from each, requiring only the highest official of both parties to accede in order for an amendment to be passed.

For zir judicial powers I see the Arbiter as an agent of the Kaiser. The only tiny bit of power he has over the Kaiser is the ability to overturn decrees with the unanimous consent of the Landsraad - if it wasn't for that, the Arbiter would simply be a legal expert whose powers could just come from decrees, as with ministries. I don't consider that power to be enough to make zir an independent, third part of the government. Perhaps Arbitership should have its own line of succession that the Kaiser can't futz with (without, say, the Praetor's permission)? (I think that way to run a judiciary would be a bit too wacky even for Shireroth...)

Each line in the Charter should have a very good reason to be there (just because *someone* broke this principle doesn't mean we should do the same); I don't think the Charter is the appropriate place to say that two people from the same party (the Imperial court) have to accede to Charter amendments. Granted, if people are going to amend the Charter they *should* go to a legal expert... but there's a lot of things that people should do that aren't mentioned in the Charter because it's not about that, it's about what you must or what you can't do.

[Malliki]

I agree with you Ari. As Arbiter, I derive my authority from the Kaiser. It would be strange for me to approve actions of the Kaiser. I would recommend though that the Kaiser, whoever it might be, would consult with the Judex before amending the Charter, but I don't think that need to be put in the Charter.

[Andreas the Wise]

For what it's worth, Ari's charter looks good to me (though I note it still has "nobles" in the landsraad)

[Erik Mortis]

(To Mike and Ari)
My reasons:
1.(main) To make amendments slower/harder to make, thus more likely to be required and essential. Thus also making the structure more rigid and stable over time.
2. To strengthen the role of the Arbiter, who at this point gets power from the Charter, Landsraad and Kaiser, thus making it a kinda 3 branch.
3. Protect the power of the Arbiter over the Kaiser.

Though appointed by the Kaiser, I consider the Arbiter and the Judex its own structure within Shireroth at this point. Originally the Judex was an extension of the Landsraad. Over time We/I have expanded the Arbiter to have power from the Charter and the Kaiser(by appointment), as well as power over the Landsraad and Kaiser in specific situations. So in a way the Arbiter is the end result of all the branches. I like the idea of including him in the Amendment process. Still, the Kaiser is the one amending, but the Praetor and Arbiter give it a look over.

The Praetor protects the Landsraad in the Charter Amendments, but there is no direct reason for the Praetor to protect the Arbiter/Judex. The Arbiter being a part of the process can protect the Judex and the powers of the Arbiter.

I do admit that a lot of my planning in the charter is based on the assumption that people will try to expand their power base. The Kaiser will try to take power back from the Landsraad and Arbiter, and the Praetor will try to stop the Kaiser. And now the Arbiter as well.

All the changes and structure, outside the core government, are based on the assumption that future Kaiser's will try to regain all their absolute power back. As I obviously cannot control who becomes Kaiser in the future, I try to build a system that can handle Kaisers who seek absolute power back. While the Kaiser has mostly absolute power, I recognize that SOME checks are needed, at least in appearance on the Kaiser.

I also work under the assumption that the Kaiser, Praetor and Arbiter are in adversarial positions, which in Charter situation they are. Hasan showed the adversarial relationship between the Kaiser and Landsraad when he tried, several times, to interfere with it. And thus the adversarial role of the Kaiser and Arbiter when I tried to stop him and protect the Landsraad. (if I recall we had issues with Jonas no protecting the Landsraad then too).

While Jonas does kinda mess up the adversarial plan, this isn't necessarily how it's been historically, or should be. When I'm Kaiser I leave the Landsraad and Judex alone, thus no adversarial position need be taken. And under MOST Kaiserships the Kaiser leaves the Landsraad alone, thus no adversarial issues. Also, under most Kaisership the Kaiser doesn't violate the Charter or try to do really controversial things.
I've been noticing a trend of Kaisers becoming increasingly more likely to violate the Charter and try to violate traditions and stuff. Maybe it's because we've been using more and more unconventional Kaiser choices. In the past it was mostly me, and a few select others. Now a days anyone can be Kaiser; hell, Bill was Kaiser! This leads me to conclude that the Kaisership needs to be monitored more. Still allowed the full power as always, but we need to protect the other structures more, and protect the Charter more.

THUS, I want the Arbiter put into the Amendment process. Like it or not we build a three branch government. Absolute, Less Absolute and Judicial. We don't have separation of powers, but we do have competing power structures.

When everyone gets along the structures get along fine and things can be done clean and orderly. But in the past we had people Locke around, and well if you know your history that was NOT a fun time period. The structure I want will harness the adversarial energy in play in those time periods to help protect the Charter from the conflict. With 3 competing power structure, it's less likely that one can use the Charter against another. The addition of the Arbiter acts as a check between conflicts between the Kaiser and Landsraad, an arbitrator.
This isn't foolproof by ANY stretch of the imagination, but I am trying to find a balance.

In my next post I will put forth another idea.

[Erik Mortis]

For what it's worth, Ari's charter looks good to me (though I note it still has "nobles" in the landsraad)

Um... Ari's Charter?

Nobles is left in instead of Dukes or what not for several reasons.
1. Let's the Landsraad say if Barons are allowed in.
2. In case we decide to create another type of noble.
3. New Feudalism was possible with the term "Noble" in there. Not saying we want that back, but it keeps our options open.

Think of the Charter as a template class in c++, nobles is the base class for Dukes and Barons. With nobles mentioned in the Charter, and NOT a specific type of noble, it means we can use Dukes and Barons as we please, without requiring a change to the Charter. This is why I use the vagueness in the Charter that I do.

[Andreas the Wise]

That's what I thought (and I meant Ari's posted rewrite).

I can see the point about the Judex. The Charter is like the constitution - it shouldn't be easy to change. At worst, adding the Judex as a check merely means the Kaiser has to bribe another person to get through. At best, it stops stupid proposals even easier.

[Erik Mortis]

Okey.
Right now the Kaiser appoints and dismisses the Arbiter. The Landsraad has dismissal power with Kaiser consent as well.

I want to add the Arbiter to the Amendment process to act as another protection. Mike and Ari's objections have some merit due to the above structure of appointing and dismissing the Arbiter.

What if...
The Kaiser appoints the Arbiter.
The Landsraad can dismiss the Arbiter by 2/3rd vote.
The Kaiser may not veto this vote or reappoint the same Arbiter.

This was the Landsraad can remove crappy Arbiter, and the Kaiser can make sure not to appoint an Arbiter that will just fight in on Everything, even legit things.

Or, Make it that: (I prefer this one)
The Kaiser appoints the Arbiter.
The Landsraad can dismiss the Arbiter with 2/3rds, but the Kaiser can override the vote.
If the vote is unanimous then the Kaiser cannot override the dismissal.
The Kaiser can not reappoint the dismissed Arbiter.
The Kaiser/Steward/Arbiter are no permitted to vote on the matter if they are Nobles.

[Erik Mortis]

That's what I thought (and I meant Ari's posted rewrite).

I can see the point about the Judex. The Charter is like the constitution - it shouldn't be easy to change. At worst, adding the Judex as a check merely means the Kaiser has to bribe another person to get through. At best, it stops stupid proposals even easier.

Ok, what I thought. Yeah. I never learned how to properly use Zie and Zir...so I never use them. It does clean it up having them in there.

And yes! That's my point.

[Malliki]

I will not participate any further in the debate about whether or not the Arbiter should be included in the Charter amendment process.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

The Kaiser may not veto this vote or reappoint the same Arbiter.

Unless the Landsraad approves him, right?

[Kaiser Reynardine I]

Why would they, considering that's after they just went through the trouble of voting him/her out...

[b3n|<3r|\|]

They would do it so they could get him back in. Everyone makes mistakes. As it stands, the proposed system would mean the Landsraad could remove someone... and then he could never, ever go back in. Provision for reinstatement needs to be present.

[Kaiser Reynardine I]

Very true...good call...

[Erik Mortis]

That was my intent. I just wasn't sure if I should make it a concrete time, or a vague generality like the old arbiter can't be immediately reinstated. Let people interpret immediately as they please. Or make no note of it at all and leave a loophole.

Why won't you participate any more Mike. As Arbiter I kinda want your input.

[Malliki]

Ah, overkill. I will participate in the discussion of the general issue, but not on whether the Arbiter should or shouldn't be included. I don't want to promote power for myself.

[Erik Mortis]

Go for it.