I call... a charterial convention!

[Ari Rahikkala]

That's right. I'm unhappy with Jake's amendments to the charter. It doesn't solve any of the problems that we have actually had or that anyone has seen coming, tries to solve problems that probably don't exist, and introduces vagueness and difficulties of its own. I'm also unhappy with our current charter. It's written in stilted language, is full of arbitrary capitalisation and poor punctuation, legislates irrelevant things... and there are also some things in it that I want to change simply because I want Shireroth to go in that direction .

The purpose of this convention is to discuss the corrent Charter and the problems with it, and to produce a new, amended Charter to be presented to Kaiser Reynardine I to be decreed if he so wants. We'll also want to handle the amendments added by the late Loki III but not yet approved by the Praetor.

A quick agenda of things to discuss that I'll be following in the next post:

1. Problems we've already had with the current Charter that we need an amendment to solve
2. Foreseeable problems with the current Charter that we should solve with an amendment.
3. Loki's amendments, whether they should be added to the Charter in their current form, changed and added, or not added at all.
4. Niftiness and amendments we could add to the Charter that would take the nation in a better direction even if they don't specifically solve any problem.
5. Sentence structure, wording and clarity of the Charter; whether things are legislated in the right place, etc.
6. Style, grammar, punctuation, capitalisation, etc.;

[Ari Rahikkala]

First, let's consider the actual problems that we have had that amendments to the Charter really ought to solve:

- The power of the Steward to affect Imperial Decrees is poorly defined.
- There is no requirement to keep the Decreebook updated. I don't really know if there should be one, though - it seems the Charter, being above decrees, should be independent of what format Imperial Decrees happen to be recorded in...
- The power of the Kaiser to affect the functioning of the Landsraad is ambiguous.
- Others? These are the ones I could mention off the top of my head, there might be more obscure problems hidden away somewhere that I've forgotten...

If we're going to amend the Charter, the first thing we should do to it is fix these problems.


Second, if anyone sees other significant ambiguities and obvious bugs in the Charter that might come back to bite us later, please speak out now.


Third, let's consider Jake's amendments and how much good they do.

Section B: Right to Counsel
No one shall be deprived of counsel of zir choice without restriction in any legal proceeding in Shireroth.

I can see where Jake's coming from here. It *would* be great to have a law that ensures that everyone will have competent counsel in any legal proceeding in Shireroth. Well, this amendment is not that law. If you read it in a malicious way, it allows you to force any Shirithian to work as your lawyer; if you *don't* read it in a malicious way, it doesn't ensure that someone who's unpopular and poor can get at least *someone* to be zir lawyer.

On the other hand, it does ensure that the Landsraad or a Duke or anyone can't deprive anyone of counsel. I'd call that a tiny step in the right direction - but probably too tiny to justify adding a sentence's worth of complexity to the Charter.

I suggest leaving it out or rewriting it in a form that's closer to actually implementing something useful.

Section C: Equality of Dukes and Duchies
All Dukes and Duchies are equal under the Kaiser. No Duke or Duchy shall be deprived of its equality without the consent of the Kaiser, the Duke of the Duchy concerned, and the Landsraad.

I have no idea what equality means here. For instance: Does this imply forcing the Landsraad back to go back to one duke, one vote? Well, it probably doesn't function retroactively, but two duchies did disapprove of the original bill. What would the result of that act have been under this amendment? Two duchies somehow being equal while three others vote with erb? Or is one's number of votes in the Landsraad part of equality? Is the amount of land held by duchies supposed to be equal? The amount of citizens?

If you're going to try to enforce fairness between duchies, you should carefully find the areas where they might be treated unfairly and legislate against those. Equality is too vague to work with.




Fourth, fifth, and sixth, I have some problems with some of the actual legal content in the Charter (for instance, I'd really like the Landsraad to officially be a gathering of dukes, not of nobles), and with some of the wording and sentence structure, and placement (for instance, the requirement for the Kaiser to have only a Shirithian citizenship is mentioned in the section for Kaiserial heirs), and with punctuation and capitalisation respectively. I'll cover those in a later post once the earlier agenda items have been taken care of.

[Kaiser Reynardine I]

- The power of the Steward to affect Imperial Decrees is poorly defined.

I believe Erik has some thoughts on this subject.

He's been saying how he wants to change the charter some, so I'll wait for his council on the matter before I comment.

[Kaiser Loki III]

I was intentionally vague.

1-
The intent was that "counsel" would not be restricted to a state sanctioned Bar Association. I've seen that evolve into a repressive-"Lawyers-Are-The-Servants-of-the-State, screw the defendant, esp. if unpopular" system in at least five MN's that I've had experience in and around. It should not have a chance to take root here.

Everyone should have the right to be represented by and receive advice from whoever. The courst should not become an ivory tower of the learned only.

2-

Yes, the intent was to make every Duchy equal in every way, including the Landsraad. I think most of us believe that, but we are afraid to damage the economy.

Let the economy develop in other ways.

....and I realized that if I was ready to resort to such to get my way, it was time to step down, rather than start a "war".

I'm glad that at least a discussion started.

[Erik Mortis]

Considering I've been trying to get onto the throne for 3 Kaiserships to fix the Charter....

All(most) of the issues Ari brought up are on my agenda to fix when I finally get the throne again. I do NOT support either of the amendments that Loki put in.

The mention of Nobles and not Dukes making up the landsraad was intentional, to allow flexibility as we constantly redefine voting and stuff in the Landraad.

the spelling and grammar mistakes are mine. Since I've done the VAST majority of the work on the Charter.


Lastly, I do not believe in holding a convention of this nature concerning the Charter. It is not the place of the "people" to change the Charter. Thus I will not particulate any further.

[Erik Mortis]

This isn't me participating... but... due to this I finally decided to start working on the charter I plan to put into place when I'm finally made Kaiser.

http://www.shireroth.org/shirewiki/Erik ... rter_draft

Ari, if you wanna fix the grammar for me. I'd be fine with it. But I don't want anyone to mess with it.

And I still oppose this convention.

[Ari Rahikkala]

OK, call it "a random gathering of citizens to find stuff that needs to be fixed and how to fix it so the end result will probably be better than if Corey just went at it alone like Jake just did" instead of a convention then .

Imagine I were the Kaiser. I would have started a convention like this to ask for ideas at some point, but I'd have picked out what I thought was taking the nation in the right direction from the responses. Well, I'm not the Kaiser, and Corey didn't call for a convention, but I figured I might as well cut out the part where the Kaiser requests stuff in the first place, because he can still do whatever he likes with the results...

[Jess]

Why would you oppose it?

[Kaiser Reynardine I]

Erik,

Probably a good idea to disallow the Kaiser vetoing the removal of the Arbiter?

[Erik Mortis]

Why would you oppose it?

I have weird opinions. But I'll relax them a little, because this is useful for me in my creating a Charter that fixes issues, for when I become Kaiser.

I see no reason to disallow the Kaiser from vetoing a Arbiter removal.

[Kaiser Reynardine I]

*shrug* I remember you calling it a problem when I was Steward.

[Jess]

I see no reason to disallow the Kaiser from vetoing a Arbiter removal.

That has so many double negatives...i dont understand!

[Erik Mortis]

It has zero double negatives....

I don't recall having any such qualms. And if I did, I don't know what I was talking about.

If the Landsraad wanted to remove the Arbiter, but the Kaiser doesn't want them to do so, then he should be allowed to veto them.

[Jonas]

Erik,

Probably a good idea to disallow the Kaiser vetoing the removal of the Arbiter?

The Kaiser has absolut power and would be disallowed to veto a removal?

[Malliki]

The Kaiser does not have absolute power, he or she is subject to the Charter.

[Jacobus Loki]

And in the end the Charter is subject to the Kaiser, who can suspend it.

I oppose weakening the Kaiser. If there are massive upheavals in the future, the continuity and legitimacy of the Kaiser can restore the nation, after the example of Mors V.

I also urge that everyone support Ari's "discussion", and assist Kaiser Reynardine in a reform of the charter.

[Kaiser Reynardine I]

I don't recall having any such qualms. And if I did, I don't know what I was talking about.

If the Landsraad wanted to remove the Arbiter, but the Kaiser doesn't want them to do so, then he should be allowed to veto them.

Then perhaps I was mistaken. Take no heed to that comment, then.

[Erik Mortis]

When I wrote the Charter, and every revision I've made to it, has been done with the idea of backup systems in mind.
The Kaiser is the ultimate backup system. The only limits on him our the Charter, which he can edit. This amending power is checked by the Praetor. The Praetor is checked by the Landsraad. The Kaiser can change the membership of the Landsraad. The Kaiser can veto the Landsraad, except in matters of Landsraad procedure and operation. the Arbiter, Praetor and Landsraad all together make up the check to the Kaiser in regards to submitting to the Charter. The Kaiser appoints the Arbiter. The Landsraad can remove the Arbiter only if the Kaiser agrees.

All checks on the Kaiser in the end are weak and can be circumvented. But they are there for a reason. In the end the Kaiser IS all powerful. With only 1 absolute restriction: no interfering with the Landsraad's procedures.

The system is also designed so we will always have a ruler. Either Kaiser or Steward on the throne. If we have neither the Landsraad instantly is called to session, even if the last Kaiser dismissed it, so they can appoint a Steward.

The system is redundant and overlapping. And there are even weak checks for if we get a nutter Kaiser, which as always been my concern.

And the Kaiser cannot suspend the Charter without the go ahead from the Praetor. This was done only once, in order to rebuild the Landsraad when the nation had died. So Jakes, the Kaiser is still subject to the Charter. Only if the Praetor allows him to suspend the Charter (which acts as an Amendment), can the Kaiser have power over the Charter in the way you infer Jake.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Erik, can the Kaiser legally fire the Praetor, expel the Praetor from Shireroth, replace all the Dukes with people willing to vote in a new Praetor, or otherwise thwart a Praetor who disagrees with him?

I agree with all of Ari's points, though not enough and not well-thought-through enough to have suggestions myself. I agree with Jacobus that there should be no limits on legal counsel (although his amendment was weirdly phrased and I'm only 2/3 sure I understand it right) but think that should a Landsraad matter for the Lawbook. I don't agree with the anti-economic amendment, and also think it was poorly worded. "Duchies must be equal" could mean anything, including Dukes from smaller Duchies demanding people move to them because Duchies should be equal in population or something silly like that. Or one could go the other direction and say every Duchy should have equal rights to make money and spend it on Landsraad votes.

I do think it's important that no one do what Rakesh once did and declare themselves a "super-duchy" better than everyone else, but we haven't had any trouble with that since Rakesh and the Landsraad's well-placed to quash that if it ever comes up. In summary, Landsraad good, charter bad!

[Kaiser Reynardine I]

Landsraad good, charter bad!

Well in that case...

[Erik Mortis]

I think he means messing with the Charter bad, having things go through the Landsraad is good.

The Kaiser might be able to dismiss the Praetor, but himself cannot put one in place. I plan to make it so he can't remove the Praetor in my new Charter revision. The CAN remove all dukes and place new ones.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

*makes notes on List of Evil Plans*

[Erik Mortis]

Yeah...

[Jacobus Loki]

Activity good......

[Erik Mortis]

I am adding two words to my draft that I believe are of great importance "and Arbiter".

I have concluded that as Shireroth now functions, with the way we now look to the Judex for council and advice on deeply legal issues, the Arbiter should be included with the Praetor in giving consent to Amendments.

[Rai Avon-El]

But couldn't the kaiser just appoint an arbiter he likes to get his amendments rubber-stamped then?

[Kaiser Reynardine I]

Erik,

Honestly, you could require as many people as you want to ratify amendments to the Charter, but that's just that many more poeple the Kaiser must replace to get things zir way. The praetor is the single safest route to take, since zir position is at the mercy of the Landsraad. If the Arbiter disagrees, then he can be replaced with someone more favorable by the Kaiser. But if the Praetor disagrees, then he can only be replaced by the Landsraad. If the Kaiser wants to affect that appointment, then zie would have to go around replacing Dukes until they elect one that approves of the amendment.

...in short, I find adding the Arbiter to the list of approvers logical, but utterly pointless...

[Rai Avon-El]

What if the arbiter is appointed by the Landsraad or the Praetor?

[Erik Mortis]

I think the Kaiser understands.

We can never truly check the power of the Kaiser, not without destroying the monarchy, but we can make it harder for the Kaiser do fuck up the underlying structure of the nation.

And if the Kaiser DID remove the Arbiter and rebuild the Landsraad to elect a rubber stamper to Praetor, I would not expect him to be Kaiser much longer.

[Kaiser Reynardine I]

Zie wouldn't be Kaiser much long simply for rebuilding the Landsraad, so I still say adding the Arbiter's signature to the Amendment requirements is pointless.