A serious Petition to the Landsraad

[Andreas the Wise]

I do humbly petition the Landsraad that, having passed the first half of the economic bill, pass the actually important half and change to a full economic voting system. I trust the wisdom of the Dukes in this crucial vote, and that they'll listen to their barons this time ...

3. Voting

A.
1. After a bill has been presented, there is a period of exactly four days (96 hours) during which the members of the Landsraad can vote on it. Each member has one vote with a value outlined below, which he or she may cast in any unambiguous way to represent a vote of aye or nay, on any bill during the voting period. A vote only applies to a bill exactly as it has been presented. At the end of the period, the Praetor counts the votes, announces the result, and if the ayes outnumber the nays, updates the LawBook with the changes.

2. The value of The Erb shall be pegged to a vote in The Landsraad. The total amount of erb held by the combined sum of funds in the accounts of a given Duchy will be counted as the total amount of votes that the voting member has within the Landsraad. Only Dukes have a voting right in the Landsraad, either Aye or Nay.

3. Should Barons wish not to support the vote of their Duke, they may establish a second account for themselves registered to Shirekeep. The funds of the abstaining baron may be held in that account for the duration of the vote. Upon completion of the vote, it is the duty of the Baron to transfer their balance back to their Duchy account.

4. The Ducal voting shall be public, and the amount of erb in each Duchy shall be tabled at the conclusion of each vote. Erbs in Shirekeep will always count as an Abstain vote.

5. The Kaiser may not use the balance of The Household Account to vote in the Landsraad, but may use the balance as otherwise desired within t limit of regulations stated in this Law.

B.
1. Erb counted toward votes in the Landsraad are not terminated at the end of each vote, but may be reused and reflected in the gain and loss of currency within the account of each voter.

(note - technically I think I have the power to propose this directly to the Landsraad, but I figure by putting it here, I guarantee at least one vote by whoever cares enough to take it over )

EDIT: I also humbly petition the Landsraad/Kaiser to confirm whether, as Minister of Trade, I'm meant to be responsible for the paying of bounties, and if so, do ask humbly that I be given access to a secondary Shirekeep account with enough funds that I may pay out appropriate bounties. I say secondary assuming nobody wants to give me admin access or access to the full Imperial Treasury.

[Malliki]

I actually like the system with a baronial chamber with one vote in the Landsraad better than this hosh-posh mish-mash. Confusing? Yep. Strange? You betcha. Why should the Dukes' subordinates be able to influence their votes?

[Andreas the Wise]

Why should we accumulate money otherwise?

I'll let Hasan talk about the serious stuff and the success this method had in the Babkhan economy. But from an economics perspective, micronational economies tend to fail because nobody has any motivation to accumulate money, and, most of the time, the things sold aren't worth buying. The second one isn't solved by a changing of economy - it depends more on services provided and education of shopkeepers - but the motivation to get money (which flows through into a motivation to offer things that people actually want to buy) is solved by changing the economy. Under this system, (have you looked up the old accompanying debates and discussions that led to this bill?) citizens who are active in developing Shireroth have more say in the Landsraad - it rewards service to the nation. But its also not democracy (the great Shirithian heresy) - the Duke's vote only is retained. Just now the Duke's vote is weighted based on the service of them and their Duchy, and the Duke has more motivation to actually listen to their citizens rather than rule with an iron fist. Non-Dukes cannot vote, but they can choose to NOT support their Duke's vote (something Yvain and I fought very strongly for).

The Kehl proposal, you must note, was made after (because of a Praetorial oversight) half the legislation for the economy was passed while excluding the important bit (though if voting had actually been extended until all the Dukes had a chance to vote, it's very clear it would have passed). It garnered little to no public support. It was re-proposed by Yvain (though this time including Commoners also) and was rapidly shot down (for the reason that it included commoners). Compare that to the Economic Bill voting records which would have passed, as said, if the voting period had been left open for a sufficient time.

It is of course up to the Kaiser and Dukes whether they want to share their power. They have said no to Kehl. The economic bill has admittedly had its share of controversies, yes. But it was fully hammered out into a form everyone but Jonas appeared to agree on. Proposed by a Kaiser, approved by most of the Dukes ... well, if you like the idea of a single vote from a Kehl (and it appears more likely the Solaralist Temple will be rebuilt in Antya than you'll get the Kehl) then this is clearly a suitable alternative that actually has Ducal/Kaiseral support ... well, ex-Kaiser.

[Erik Mortis]

Remove part three entirely. It'll make more sense if you don't legislate how that'll work.

[Hesam Jayatar]

Andreas, I'm very glad you've decided to take this up again. I still believe this system will work in it's concept. Perhaps it does need more refining, I'm not certain. But if the micronational "grail" of a working economy is possible, I think it lies within this concept. Before my end as Kaiser, I even suggested that we adopt it on a limited term, JUST to try it. I think that should still stand. Oh and I want my erb. I was rather wealthy.

[Andreas the Wise]

If it´s accepted that part 3 is a viable practice but doesn´t need to be in the lawbook I´m more than happy to remove it.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Let us remove section 3!

[Andreas the Wise]

3. Voting

A.
1. After a bill has been presented, there is a period of exactly four days (96 hours) during which the members of the Landsraad can vote on it. Each member has one vote with a value outlined below, which he or she may cast in any unambiguous way to represent a vote of aye or nay, on any bill during the voting period. A vote only applies to a bill exactly as it has been presented. At the end of the period, the Praetor counts the votes, announces the result, and if the ayes outnumber the nays, updates the LawBook with the changes.

2. The value of The Erb shall be pegged to a vote in The Landsraad. The total amount of erb held by the combined sum of funds in the accounts of a given Duchy will be counted as the total amount of votes that the voting member has within the Landsraad. Only Dukes have a voting right in the Landsraad, either Aye or Nay.

3. There is no section three.

4. The Ducal voting shall be public, and the amount of erb in each Duchy shall be tabled at the conclusion of each vote. Erbs in Shirekeep will always count as an Abstain vote.

5. The Kaiser may not use the balance of The Household Account to vote in the Landsraad, but may use the balance as otherwise desired within the limit of regulations stated in this Law.

B.
1. Erb counted toward votes in the Landsraad are not terminated at the end of each vote, but may be reused and reflected in the gain and loss of currency within the account of each voter.

Benkern, would you do the honours of taking this to the Landsraad then?

[Erik Mortis]

And I never got the point of putting Section B in.... Isn't that assumed..?

[Andreas the Wise]

I have no idea ... it was you who actually wrote the legislation (well, that is, wrote it in Lawbook form instead of decree form)

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Well extra clarification is never bad (up to a point, and B does not reach this point). I shall indeed bring this Bill before the Landsraad.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Well extra clarification is never bad (up to a point, and B does not reach this point). I shall indeed bring this Bill before the Landsraad.

[Hesam Jayatar]

"Benkern demonstrates EXTRA clarification through the use of superfluous posts"

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Hahah, can someone delete that double-post? Accidental.

[Jacobus Loki]

My Lords and fellow citizens.

The last time this went around, I was constrained in my expression over this idea.

A few points and thoughts on the subject-

1- It simply won't work. Too complicated. Unless one is looking for a way to slow the business of the Landsraad.

2- MN economies usually fall apart regularly. If this is really wanted, a back-up voting system should be in place.

3- Why should "erbs" count more in the business of the Empire than Duchies? One duke, one vote has always worked, and worked with a certain amount of dispatch. Why plutocracy? One Duchy could easily attract the wealthiest, leading to inevetiable civil war by the four shut-out duchies.

4- In the case of deadlock and the grinding to a stop of the gears of government, getting anything done would fall back on Kaiserial decree. Does the Landsraad really want to give up what little power it has in exchange for short-term fun?

Admittledly, this has a lot to do with my dislike of MN economics. I'm just glad that as a private citizen I will have absolutely no responsibility for trying to make this work, or for cleaning up the mess when it crashes.

[hypatias mom]

Sadly, I happen to wholeheartedly agree with Jacobus about this votes-for-erbs scheme. It is too cumbersome, and has little to recommend it to the counts and barons. There is often little dissension in voting, and where there is some, the measure is usually one of questionalble merit anyway. I see few if any chance that it will be a useful tool to persuade a duke to vote a different way if arguing or persuading doesn't work first. I give it a couple of months at best before it collapses of its own weight.

[Erik Mortis]

As it stands, Yardistan controls the Landsraad with the most citizens. We lack any means to entice the movement of money between people.

And part 3 of Section A was left in the draft put before the Landsraad.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

D'oh-nuts.

[Hesam Jayatar]

What exactly is going to crash? My Computer? The internet as a whole? Why not just try the system for a short period and if it doesn't work nothing is lost. I don't understand what people are afraid of. If no one likes micronational economies then why bother even having an ministry of trade??

[b3n|<3r|\|]

To laugh at.

[Hesam Jayatar]

Or as an excuse to say "Oh we did that years ago" or "That reminds me of something we tried a while back". Just in case some one else makes a working economy?

[Jacobus Loki]

If it passes I'm not going to bomb anything. It feels terribly unshirithian. If another MN were to start with this economic premise, I'd cheer them on.

I gave all my erbs away, so I have no stake in it. Pass it, and the good part is that Lord benkern will be as powerful as the person exercising the position of Kaiser. But whither Straylight, Brookshire? Those Duchies have traditionally had great moral suasion. What happens to that? I'm sure Elwyn and Kildare would like a say in what goes on.

One Duke, one vote. But Viva benkern in any event.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Jacobus, I hope you're not implying I'm supporting this simply for my own power or prestige.

I can take the fact that I will probably be blamed for having so many citizens in Yardistan. (Sorry for not discouraging people from coming into my Duchy. Wait, I did, but they joined anyway.) But don't think for a second that I want to have more citizens because of some petty power thing, or that I want to implement this system because it will "bolster my influence" or some such. That would be pathetic. Shireroth is for fun! This system will add one more level of intrigue which I think will benefit the nation greatly.

And I agree, Viva Benkern. I will call for a Ducal Equality Tax in my Duchy which dictates that each resident must give a one-off payment of 10% of his wealth to the Ducal treasury to be shared out amongst the other Dukes. It's a shame all of my people (including me of course) must pay to stave off heinous accusations such as these but such is the atmosphere in Shireroth today.

[Andreas the Wise]

*considers quoting who is actually the richest Duchy according to the bank.*

*Thinks better of it and doesn't*

My good sirs, I have but three things to add.

1. I am an economist, and though I know that micronational economies fail eventually, I think this one has more potential than most, and I'd like to see it in action first hand. It's not suitable for Gralus because our legislature is not as active/controversial as Shireroth, so if I am to see it, I must see it here.

2. Turn the argument about populous duchies on its head. Why is it fair that the Duchy of X, which has only two citizens, one inactive, should have as much say in the Landsraad as they Dutchy of Y, which has 6 active citizens. I remember reading a while ago that, originally, the qualification for a Duchy involved a Duke and 3 other citizens. Let us remember, though some like me have not seen it in our liftime, that Shirithian Duchies are not set in stone. They come and go as interest and support waves. I'm not sure if the original law has been repealed, or whether, technically, Oro could form a Duchy with the three new citizens he bought in and steal land (in the loosest sense) from Straylight and Yardistan. But if we're not going to remove the tiny duchies any more, why not weight their vote in the Landsraad accordingly?

3. Lady Lumina, this system DOES have something to endear it to Barons (if not counts). Before, we have absolutely no say in the Landsraad. Now, we can remove our support from our Duke in a way that actually hurts him, if only for a single law. True, to be fully effective the economic voting system suggests that all citizens should be able to vote, but this is Shireroth, and we ignore such heresies. The Dukes vote ... but now the lesser nobles can have a little say too. Pre this bill, my comment in the Landsraad is nil. Post this bill, its small, but its something.

[Jacobus Loki]

To benkern:

Jacobus, I hope you're not implying I'm supporting this simply for my own power or prestige.

My gods no, I'm implying no such thing. Yardistan is the best place to live and Shirerithians are unusually intelligent. You as you have nothing to do with it. I appointed you, and I have rested easy about Yardistan ever since. It was merely pointed out that under this system, Yardistan could rule.

Now thank Loki and Mors and Sakat that YOU are Duke of Yardistan through this time! I was merely pointing out that one duchy could rule, and that is not a Good Thing in General.

We differ on a politcal point is all.

Of course if Babkhan refugees must continue to run Shireroth......

viva benkern!shhh!!

To Andreas-

I hold that this will bring chaos and rule by the kind gentleman functioning as Kaiser, and likely civil war. But those are not necessarily bad things. If I'd kept any erbs I could start a pool on when this would collapse, and have a good time doing it.

This is a replay of the tug-of-war between one and two-house legislatures since parliaments began. The usual solution is an upper and a lower house.

Thank Loki that I'm not a Duke or Steward in the midst of this!

(makes popcorn)

[b3n|<3r|\|]

*annexes Jacobus' popcorn*

[Jacobus Loki]

(makes enough popcorn for everyone)

Fired Fish! Get your Fired Fish! .25 erb each!

[Andreas the Wise]

Ah well Jacobus, we don't see eye to eye, but at least we're talking civilly to one another. Tell you what, if it collapses into civil war in under a month I'll give you 100 erb

(I'll also be proposing the removal of the erb entirely, since without the voting bit it ranks as "Most Pointless of Pointless Economies", but that's a different story )

[Jonas]

I predict chaos!
And all the powers in the hand of one Duke!

[b3n|<3r|\|]

All the power would be in the hand of one Duke if all the Dukes gave their monies to one Duke, yes. But as Andreas pointed out, Kildare has more Erbage than Yardistan. And the other Duchies still have substantial treasuries. This system does not render any Duke impotent in the Landsraad.