Shirerithian legal procedure

[Scott of Hyperborea]

The Maraguans seem upset at some of our latest forays into the legal world, and I've got to admit I sort of agree with them. I realize we can't completely abandon law, trials, lawyers, and stuff like that. But we might be able to soften some of the impact by Shirerithianizing them.

The last few what seems like legal procedure carbon-copied from America and Britain, like we all know from courtroom dramas. But some of it seems unnecessary to Shireroth. For example, a major focus of real world trials is presenting evidence in a very formal matter to a jury that otherwise has no access to it. In Shireroth, if the evidence is in the form of posts, everyone's already seen everything and witnesses therefore work a little differently.

There's also the issue of contempt of court. The last trial, it happened just about every other post. Probably comes from a native Shirerithian distrust of authority and of behaving in a formal way and keeping one's thoughts to onesself. We could either try to fight that, by slapping everyone with contempt violations until they talk exactly like people on a US courtroom drama. Or we could create a system that is less sensitive to that kind of thing than the American system is.

I don't know much about law, but if (as will hopefully be the case) there aren't a lot of suits in the next while, the lawyers here might profitably spend their time determining a more Shirerithian procedure for suits and trials.

[hypatias mom]

Scott, I have to agree with you that the courtroom format does seem a bit formal for Shireroth. However, I believe a certain amount of dignity shoulld still be preserved in any legal venue, in order to maintain the serious nature of the procedings. Shireroth does, definitely, have a different flavror than Engliand or Britain and, therefore, her court procedings do need to be tailored to fit. This will take a precise touch--how much levity, how much dignity, and how formal--are still to be worked out So long as the participants retain respect for the members of the court, and comport themselves with a certain amount of restraint, things should go well, in most cases.

[Malliki]

One problem is the complete lack of legislation regarding this. There is no law telling us what to do at a trial, other than very basic stuff, so we are just winging it. We are going to draft some piece of court procedure directive, and you are very welcome to help out with any ideas you might have. As for contempt of court, it is my firm belief that contempt is an offense that there actually doesn't have to be a law for since every court must be able to protect its proceedings. I agree that we don't need the same system as in the US or Britain, but some level of civility has to be maintained. Calling the Inquisitor an asshole or saying that the sitting judge is deliberately trying to make things difficult for the prosecution is in my opinion not up to that level.

[hypatias mom]

Those offences would fall under the rubric of maintaining respect for the members of the court. This is a basic requirement, no matter what our final court procedings look like in the end. And, yes, the judge, or whatever the presiding official is called, must have latitude to declare someone in contempt. As one wag said, "I don't know much about pornography, but I know it when I see it." The judge doesn't need a bunch of guidelines to describe it. Blatant incivility or lack of respect practically scream out their offense.

Mike, I would be honored to assist in any way I can. Please PM me if you need to discuss this privately. I have no formal legal training, but I may have some ideas on decorous courtroom behavior which might come in useful.

[Malliki]

Thanks. Will do.

[Andreas the Wise]

Scott, Novatainia, you may well know, is a relatively unserious nation. Indeed, our love affair with pirates and humorous destruction makes me offer wonder if I would have been better in Yardistan .... but anyway, the way we handle trials might be of use. We have three major ... 'guidelines' for trials.
1. You do them when you get bored. And they shouldn't stop you being friendly outside the court room.
2. They are conducted with utter seriousness ... perhaps verging even on mock seriousness. You can and should be fined for contempt of court, if only to keep the onlookers amused.
3. They are conducted for fun.

Yes, our police force might be corrupt, we may ignore huge violations of our anti-leet speak laws and pick up one use of the word lol because we were bored then ... but the important thing is that we're utterly serious during the trial, and then joke and reminisce about it afterwards.

I'm starting to confuse myself here with where I'm going, so I'll stop. Just ... yeah. You can do serious trials in a not-serious nation, as long as you remember that they're meant to be for fun, sentence accordingly, and stay friends afterwards ...

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Andreas, the difference is that it sounds like your trials in Novatainia are "rec-trials", maybe for something like stealing a magical artifact. While that might be a fun custom to import, I think the trials we're talking about here are real trials, for stuff like violating citizenship laws. In Novatainia, the trial rules have to be draconian, because that's part of the fun. Here we're not trying to have fun, we're dealing with issues that could potentially involve strong emotions and stuff.

Mike, I am actually not convinced at all that it's unacceptable to have someone call the judge an asshole. If we were debating an issue in the general forum, and Jess called you an asshole, you'd shrug it off. I've seen people say "Fuck you" to their ruling nobles before, call the Kaiser some horrible names, et cetera. If the Kaiser were to punish someone for calling him an asshole in the Kaiser's Court, we would worry he was getting dictatorial. Why should the arbiter be allowed to do it in the Iudex?

In America and Britain we have this really deeply rooted tradition of you have to be subservient to higher status people and not express your real emotions when you're around them. But we've never had that traditld we suddenly import it with judges?

[Malliki]

The asshole comment was made by Jess to Ardy. I just happen to think that in a court a certain degree of mutual respect has to be maintained. It is not an off-topic forum or General Discussion, it is a trial where the consequence of a guilty verdict could be banishment. Since the result of a trial can be very severe, I believe that we have a duty to take it seriously and not engage in personal attacks. Calling each other asshole only tends to get people fired up and that is not needed in a trial. Calling the Kaiser an idiot in a venue that isn't official or formal is no problem, but I highly doubt you'd do it if you were in the Kaiser's Court on trial for treason.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Probably comes from a native Shirerithian distrust of authority and of behaving in a formal way and keeping one's thoughts to onesself.

Nah, it came from Jess's native noobishness and Ardy's educated distrust of authorities other than him.

Anyways, ever notice how rarely the Judex forum gets used? Legal trials are nasty, unpleasant things with terrible consequences - it's for the best that we require people to behave themselves, to make the unpleasantness clear. Makes the rest of Shireroth that much more fun, you see .

[Erik Mortis]

Ari wins!

[Andreas the Wise]

Andreas, the difference is that it sounds like your trials in Novatainia are "rec-trials", maybe for something like stealing a magical artifact. While that might be a fun custom to import, I think the trials we're talking about here are real trials, for stuff like violating citizenship laws. In Novatainia, the trial rules have to be draconian, because that's part of the fun. Here we're not trying to have fun, we're dealing with issues that could potentially involve strong emotions and stuff.

Not for stealing magic artefacts, they're all for breaking laws. Just often it's a rather trivial law ...

[Erik Mortis]

I would throw those ones out of my court