License to Kehl

[Yvain Wintersong]

Looking through the archives of the last four months, I detect - synergies.

So Baron Erik wants a Council of Barons called the Kehl to counterbalance the Duke-dominated Landsraad. But there's no opening for a new house of the legislature, so the idea was put on hold.

Baron Andreas wants an economic bill linking votes to erb, and got it. But only Dukes can vote in the Landsraad, and there was no fair way to take into account the erb of commoners and lesser nobles without the system becoming unusably complicated. So sometime in Kaiser Hesan's reign you switched back to the old system.

Duke Ari points out that there is no procedure for the Landsraad to pass bills that do not change the lawbook, such as MCS claims, awards, and treaties.

Let's kill three birds with one stone.

Split the legislature into two parts. The upper house, the Landsraad, made only of Dukes, and the lower house, the Kehl, made of all Shirerothian citizens. The Landsraad behaves as it does now: one Duke, one vote. Its responsibilities are the same as now: changing the lawbook and performing certain duties enumerated in the Charter like appointing an emergency Steward or dismissing an Arbiter. The Kehl is a plutocracy, in which one erb equals one vote. It will decide the matters listed by Ari as outside the current Landsraad procedures, like claims and awards.

I know democracy is bad. And I know the Kehl, by including all citizens, is dangerously close to democracy. But in the end, it's not a democracy. It's a plutocracy. It's the perfect vehicle for Kaiser Hesan's economic system that will never work in the Landsraad itself. And since Dukes have absolute power over their citizens, if a Duke really wants to prevent commoners from having power, he can confiscate his citizens' money or direct their Kehl votes (although it won't win him any popularity contests).

I know I haven't read through all the economic threads yet, but this looks like the best way to get the economy to really work and be accessible to everyone in Shireroth. If it doesn't get overwhelmingly shot down, I will formalize it and propose it to the Landsraad next week as my first legislative act as Duke.

[Erik Mortis]

and the lower house, the Kehl, made of all Shirerothian citizens.

That's where I stopped reading...

[b3n|<3r|\|]

LOL@ Erik.

Interesting. I don't see it happening.

Though... this system's pointlessness reminds me of the pointlessness of the Landsraad. Because Shireroth is an absolute feudal monarchy. And I like to think of Duchies as mini Shireroths, as detailed elsewhere.

Still I don't think we have enough citizens for this to be a good idea. The Barons thing, yeah, maybe... but... eh, I don't know.

[Jonas]

Ow no no no no.
You can call it like you want but it's the first step to democracy. People always have the urge to give a weak institution more power. If we create the Kehl it will lead to the worst thing human beings ever invented... de... demo... DEMOCRACY!
And I don't like the idea of a second sort of parliament, that will derive them even more from local politics (County, Barony, Duchy).

[Malliki]

A second house of parliament which isn't exactly a part of the parliament, and doesn't have any powers (real, anyway). Pointless, anyone?

[Jonas]

A second house of parliament which isn't exactly a part of the parliament, and doesn't have any powers (real, anyway). Pointless, anyone?

Bureaucracy, needles,... you can call it how you want

[Erik Mortis]

I still want my council of Barons...

[Jess]

I think Barons should have something, maybe 1 landsraad vote for all of us, a general consensus will direct one vote. Maybe only in a tie or something of the like. Anyway barons only, because allowing all would be democracy...

[Malliki]

The classical feudal system is a tiered (no, not tired ) one. The top level commands the levels below it, which in turn command the levels below etc. etc. Giving a lower layer (Barons) a voice in the workings of the top level seems strange in that context.

[Jess]

That is what makes Shireroth unique, everything is out of order...

[Malliki]

I'm not saying that I agree with what I said. I just said it. For saying it. So, now I've said it. Get off my back!

[Jess]

Watch it mista!

[Erik Mortis]

Jess is beginning to see the light.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Well, I think it's a good idea...if only to save the economy from complete fail. But then again, I was the one who made Locke a Duke, so I've always been hopelessly to the left of the rest of Shireroth.

[Erik Mortis]

No... you just try to help people you think are the underdog or less socially accepted then the rest of us.

I could point out some other situations, but don't feel like getting into my psych evaluation of you...

[Andreas the Wise]

Did the Economic Bill ever fully pass (and actually it was Hasan's Bill, not mine)? If it did, then it clearly lets barons change their money to a shirekeep account to avoid voting with their duke and should solve the problem ...

[Erik Mortis]

It failed. And then double failed after it was passed illegally.

[Jess]

Now that the Economy has passed, I think that we need a Khel

[b3n|<3r|\|]

But we just gave you damn Barons power in the Landsraad.

Reminds me of Crusader Kings. Never go for Feudal Contract; the initial loyalty increase from vassals sounds good, but offer your underlings a hand and they will happily rip that arm right out of its socket. Elective Law is demanded by them, you see.

[Jess]

We can't speak in the Lansraad, and the Front Gate is for Non-Nobles, BARONS ARE NOBLES! We should either speak in the Lansraad or have a kehl!

[Jonas]

Ow why not? Shireroth is already ruined by the economic system, so a useless council can be added to make it perfect.

[Jacobus Loki]

(Sigh)

Leve Maraguo.

This will eventually fall into the lap of the Arbiter or the Kaiser. Shireroth seems to go through creation / destruction cycles. I sense the latter, unless something happens fairly soon.

[Hesam Jayatar]

Jonas, how is Shireroth ruined by the economic system? Are you dense? The whole purpose of inacting ideas like this is to see you and Jacobus whine and squabble on every forum in the nation to keep activity up and discussion going. Right now Shireroth is at it's peak because there are distinctly atleast two factions at work with a good middle ground of neutrals. We're doing exceptionally well because of arguements like this. If it weren't for the two of you screaming dramatically about the injustice imposed on you by me or any Babkhan in general, we'd have about half the activity we currently do.

[Jonas]

Having activity isn't the only thing a nation needs. Now some of the more cultural provinces have less power than they deserve. Besides, after a while there will be inactive accounts but the money stays where it is (so an inactive duchy can still have more votes then an active).

And I will not search after how much votes the duchies have, if you think that. Grmbl.

Grmbl. Giving me work. Chaotic system.

[Prodigy Almighty]

Besides, after a while there will be inactive accounts but the money stays where it is (so an inactive duchy can still have more votes then an active).

In that case, maybe there should be a time limit. After being inactive for long enough, someone's money shouldn't count towards the duchy's power. For example, duchy A has lots of members, and duchy B has a few members. But since most of duchy A's citizens haven't been active for a few weeks, and duchy B's members are there every couple days at least, duchy B has more voting power.

[Erik Mortis]

Have fun implementing all these fun and detailed systems!

[Jonas]

[sarcasm]What a fun we have! [/sarcasm]

[Hesam Jayatar]

If you bothered to read the background, the concept of dead accounts is taken into consideration. The money from dead accounts is folded back into the Crown account.

[Erik Mortis]

That's not what I meant...

[Andreas the Wise]

Just give Barons back the power to speak in Landsraad and be done with it ...