Religions of Hyperborea

[Scott Alexander]

The earliest Hyperborean religions were, like the religions of so many other prehistoric lands, animistic. Every spot, animal, plant, and natural phenomenon was believed to be controlled by its own animating spirit. Most feared and respected of all, however, were the spirits of the stars, and by the period of the Seven Cities important cults had developed around the planets, which were known as the Seven Wanderers (planets recognized by the Hyperboreans were Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and the asteroid Ceres). By the time of Kadham, the mythology had taken on a concrete form with Truth and Beauty as the two creator forces of the Universe, and with the Wanderers and several lesser gods as their purest descendants.Religion for the Hyperboreans was different than the current concept of religion used today. What we would put under the umbrella of "religion" would be divided by the Hyperboreans into three different categories: "mythology", "ethical-philosophical systems", and "practical spirituality". The first category was less a set of coherent groups than a series of jumbled stories; despite having the myths of the Wanderers as their foundation, hundreds and thousands of other myths were eventually tacked on, resulting in a vast body of literature much of which contradicts itself. The third category, practical spirituality, mostly consisted of disciplines like astrology, ritual magic, and prophecy. It is the second category, the ethical and philosophical systems, that the Hyperboreans to which the Hyperboreans paid the most attention to and in which they achieved the most.Best known and most influential of these was the Spiral Path, preached by the prophet Korol Nider, who according to legend was born from a virgin after she was stricken by a bolt of lightning. Korol compared the rational mind to a sword that could be wielded against despair and confusion, but said that in the vast majority of people this sword was dull and useless. His goal was to sharpen the mind until it could easily cut through the confusion which caused suffering. He suggested a number of steps, all of which he expounded upon in great detail:1. The Separation of Things and Connotations2. The Separation of Judgment and Analysis3. The Separation of Words and Meanings4. The Separation of the Real and the Ideal5. The Separation of the Known and the Assumed6. The Separation of the Means and the EndsAnyone who sharpened his mind in such ways, according to Korol, would see the emptiness of almost all conventional thoughtforms and be capable of viewing the world in any way he chose and of pursuing any goal he wished. Many went to the Cold Waste to pursue the Spiral Path, and those who returned became either prophets, the most intelligent and valuable members of society, or incurably insane.One of those who became a prophet after following the Spiral Path was the founder of the Path of Needles, Datar Sokher. Datar, after travelling rather further on the Spiral Path than even Korol recommended, came to the revelation, as had Korol, that the Universe, from an objective point of view, had no real meaning, but broke with his predecessor in saying that humanity, in creating meaning for the Universe, was performing an essential cosmic service and fulfilling its divine purpose. In his cosmology, God created the Universe but found that it was just so much random stuff. He then created mankind as a sentient being to create meaning and pattern for it, and the purpose of a human life is to mentally connect together the essentially random world into something that made sense and had a point. In other words, it was the responsibility of people to create their own meaning, but the meaning they created had effects far beyond them, and actually changed the things that they described.The name of his path comes from a legend of his time in the Cold Waste. Many of his fellow hermits were being killed by a varag, or ice demon, and he, as the holiest of them, was asked to go and either slay it or convince it to go away. He approached the ice demon, who recognized his name, and who agreed to leave if Datar could perform one task for him. The varag handed the prophet a bow and told him to shoot one arrow. If he could explain his philosophy while the arrow was in the air, the varag would leave, otherwise it would eat Datar. The hermit fired the arrow and told the varag "We are all needles of light, threaded with thought and formed by the Creator to sew a divine pattern into the fabric He has so bountifully given us." At this point the arrow hit the ground and the varag departed.The Path of Needles never grew beyond more than ten percent of the population, but was extremely influential, especially toward the end of the civilization's existence.More later, maybe.

[Harvey the Blue]

An excellent example of why logic and math based people should not go around trying to create religions. Harvey SteffkeJadie's Lesser HalfSaves the worldProud bearer of the Shirerothian Silver Sword Award and Imperial Star

[Harvey the Blue]

Quote:5. The Separation of the Known and the AssumedYour analysis is one assumption after another. Some are true, given, but some are terribly false. However, their truth or lack thereof does not change the principle that what you said is based completely on assumptions that you treated as facts to prove a point.It is slightly bad form to use the concept I just mocked against you, but perhaps you could use this as a learning experience. Harvey SteffkeJadie's Lesser HalfSaves the worldProud bearer of the Shirerothian Silver Sword Award and Imperial Star

[Mikol Rugal]

Your analysis is one assumption after another. Some are true, given, but some are terribly false. However, their truth or lack thereof does not change the principle that what you said is based completely on assumptions that you treated as facts to prove a point.

Of course they are. The end result of pursuing the Separation of the Real and the Assumed is the discovery that everything is an assumption, with some being closer to the Real than others. Your assumption that I exist rather than that I am a vastly more powerful version of the PArkshire script is an assumption. For that matter, your assumption that you exist rather than that there is a butterfly somewhere dreaming it is Harvey Steffke is an assumption. Both are warranted assumptions, and ones that can be placed close to the Real, but they are assumptions nevertheless. The wise man learns to control and take advantage of his assumptions, using them only when warranted so as to stay as close to the Real as circumstances necessitate. The unwise man makes assumptions that are baseless and offer no benefit to himself or others. I believe my assumptions, based on what I know about the English language, were correct ones. If not, it is only required that you correct them, and then I can be further enlightened as to your intent.

[Mikol Rugal]

Quote:An excellent example of why logic and math based people should not go around trying to create religions. Perhaps better than merely discussing this with you would be turning the methods of Korol Nider onto your statement to try and point out the flaws in it.First is the assumption that there are "logic and math based people" as opposed to some other sort of person, whereas of course the human personality cannot be so easily pigeonholed. This carries with it the connotation that a "logic and math person" would be unable to deal with things outside of logic and math, such as philosophy or religion. Further, your definition of the word "religion" carries the connotation that a religion ought not to be logical, whereas there is no reason why a religion should not be as logical as anything else. The statement also uses the means of the creation of the religion, that is, Korol Nider or whoever else you may have had in mind, with the end product of the religion, which, although inspired by him, is entirely separate. Finally, although your statement conveys the clear impression that the Spiral Path is an ill-conceived religion, it fails to provide any reasons, thus making it an empty vehicle for a sludge of various mentally damaging constructs. If you would list specific problems you have with the Spiral Path, or even with the Path of Needles, which I also highly respect, I would be happy to answer them for you.kaloro. Edited by: Scott Siskind  at: 8/5/03 10:40 pm

[Harvey the Blue]

Now you have me confused. By "the Separation of the Known and the Assumed" do you mean "know that your assumptions are assumptions, but basically treat everything you are pretty sure of like facts"If so, what is the point? Come to think of it, that analysis fits for a lot of the numbered seperations you origionally posted, and people do that normally all the time. How is this a path to having a sharp mind? Harvey SteffkeJadie's Lesser HalfSaves the worldProud bearer of the Shirerothian Silver Sword Award and Imperial Star

[UEC]

Cause you get confused to the point you put your head in a pencil sharpener? E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Zirandorthel]

I'd like to see that..Spiral Path, hmm? Got anything to do with a certain Eiseamlar? ZirandorthelThe Golden Darkness"In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God."-Stephen Braveheart Proud Citizen of Pyramodia

[Mikol Rugal]

Quote:Spiral Path, hmm? Got anything to do with a certain Eiseamlar?The Spiral Path is named for Korol's comment that life and philosophy somewhat resembles a spiral. A spiral is a shape that, while easy to visualize, is very difficult to understand or define from a mathematical point of view. It is a shape in which one can penetrate to deeper and deeper layers without ever reaching the center, or higher and higher without ever reaching the end. It is a shape in which one may travel a long and arduous route only to end up exactly where one started but on a deeper level (as Harvey so astutely pointed out). It is one that is oriented as a dynamic between looking inward and looking outward. It is one where component parts can be distinguished between one another easily in an irrational manner but subject to infinite disagreement as to exactly where they begin or end. And it is one where, in order to reach the center without infinite effort, it is necessary to stray from the spiral for a brief second in a sort of leap of faith, a metaphor which makes sense to very few, most of whom are not telling.As for the similarity to the Eiseamlar, I would explain it by the fact that Scott likes spirals.

[Mikol Rugal]

Quote:Now you have me confused. By "the Separation of the Known and the Assumed" do you mean "know that your assumptions are assumptions, but basically treat everything you are pretty sure of like facts"What is meant is something along the lines of "know exactly to what degree everything you do is well-founded, and to the degree that it is not well-founded, then be willing to deal with that." Let me give two examples.You believe you are living in a real Universe, as you probably do believe right now, then you are dismissing the possibility that you live in a situation similar to that of the movie "The Matrix", despite not having enough evidence to dismiss that possibility completely. If you recognize that this is an assumption, but you are willing to accept the assumption on the grounds that failing to do so would make your life a lot more complicated and meaningless without giving you any particular gain, then you are on the Path. On the other hand, my Scott personality recently mocked Arnold Schwartzenegger's running for California governor on the grounds that 1) he was a Republican and 2) he was an actor. He did not realize until discussing it that the assumption that all Republicans are evil is a hasty generalization or that the assumption that his being an actor precluded his holding many other jobs and being involved in other worthwhile pursuits was equally unfounded. Because Scott did not realize that he was making these assumptions, his view of Schwartzenegger's candidacy was skewed and he embarassed himself by insulting a man who, under further investigation, didn't deserve it. If Scott had consciously decided that he didn't have enough time to choose political candidates and would always vote for the Democrats over the Republicans because statistically he prefers the average Democrat to the average Republican, and had then done the same thing, it would have been excusable, because he would be realizing the nature of the assumption he was making and accepting it in order to gain some other goal (that is, saving time). As it is, he strayed from the Path.Quote:If so, what is the point? Come to think of it, that analysis fits for a lot of the numbered seperations you origionally posted, and people do that normally all the time. How is this a path to having a sharp mind?These are in fact very common sense rules, and many of them end you up at the same place from which you started, but the point is to develop rigor. Let me give you an metaphor. When learning grammar, you may have learned something like the difference between the subject of the sentence and the object. The teacher would give you a sentence like "The boy hit the ball" and you would be asked to say that "the boy" is the subject and "ball" is the object. This would seem kind of pointless to you, because you can common-sensically put together a sentence in which you get subject and object in the right places, and after you've analyzed such a sentence by saying "Okay, think that the boy did the action and the ball has the action done to it by the boy" you end up with the same understanding of it you had before you codified the formal rule. However, if you were trying to expand your knowledge of grammar further, to something like "Who hit the ball?" versus "The ball hit whom?", then you need to know subject and object, but common sense doesn't help you - only the formal rule does. And let's not even go into learning another language such as Latin, in which common sense can't tell you where to begin with "puer pulsat pilam" versus "pila pulsat puerum", which the formal rule can. The point of the Spiral Path is to, by formalizing that which exists within common sense, allow the follower to move out of the sphere of common sense into the area in which one can grasp the higher secrets of the Universe.Let me use as an example the discussion of assumptions we have just had. The further I go with it, the more I realize everything I know is an assumption held only for its practical value, or else held for logical reasons that do however regress back to such an assumption. Your philosopher Descartes tried to avoid this with his famous "I think therefore I am" line of inquiry, but failed for reasons I can clarify if you're interested. Once I have realized that everything is an assumption held only for its practical value, I am freed from all assumptions which have no practical value for me (except those which are inconsistent with other assumptions that do hold practical value). This does not seem too highly significant until one realizes that all of our decisions hinge on "facts" and that our entire life, from our own point of view, can be considered a series of decisions. I will note that all these Separations cannot be carried about independently of one another, and are in fact the same Path viewed from various different angles. The Paths all end at the same place, which is a total emptiness of all value and meaning from everything. What is done after this depends very much on the follower of the Path who attains it. Insanity is one popular option, but the more suggested one is to suddenly find the flip side of this state and achieve complete and perfect union with IT, an entity which can be identified with God, the Universe, the Fundamental Ground of Being, or anything else similarly ultimate. Edited by: Mikol Rugal at: 8/9/03 11:32 pm

[Harvey the Blue]

Quote:What is meant is something along the lines of "know exactly to what degree everything you do is well-founded, and to the degree that it is not well-founded, then be willing to deal with that."So, in other words, my analysis was slightly insulting but more-or-less dead on. All right.Quote:Your philosopher Descartes tried to avoid this with his famous "I think therefore I am" line of inquiry, but failed for reasons I can clarify if you're interested.I am, actually.It seems to me that this whole philosophy of sharpening one's mind seems to focus on only figuring out what is likely to be true, rather than what is certainly true. The assumption that we live in the real world has practical value, so we keep it. The assuption that the world lies on the back of a very large turtle has no real value, so we dismiss it. However, it is possible, if however unlikely, that we live in a Matrix-esque scenario that just happens to be on the back of a very large turtle.These kinds of "facts" seem to prove a stumbling block of the Path. How does the Path progress the mind of the one that follows it when the entire system is based on the known? Basing the present on the past seems to be a great way to learn everything that is known and/or assumed, but how does this help sharpen the mind towards finding new truths?(I am judging the Spiral Path by this assumption/fact point, but it seems to me that all the points follow generally the same pattern... feel free to correct me if this particular point does not represent the Path very well)Edit: there are three ways to attack an argument: attack the facts of the argument (i.e. the proper and strongest way), throw the character of the person presenting the argument into question, and assault the method of which it is delivered. Our friend seems to have chosen the third and weakest method by pointing out some glaring typos. I have fixed a few, but let this edit stand as a monument to his unsharpened mind. Harvey SteffkeJadie's Lesser HalfSaves the worldProud bearer of the Shirerothian Silver Sword Award and Imperial StarEdited by: Harvey the Blue  at: 8/10/03 1:37 am

[Mikol Rugal]

Quote:I am, actually.Very well. The biggest problem I have with it is that while Descartes claims that it can be used to conclude everything else, his attempts to do so are not nearly as rigorous as his first statement is. For example, he continues with "Since I exist, I was created by God, and since God wouldn't let a Matrix type situation go on, that's not the case, therefore the world is real, therefore everything else". But the statement itself can be thrown into doubt in a few ways too. First is that Descartes has agreed to doubt everything, even logic, and this statement is a logical statement and therefore can be doubted. Second is that Descartes introduces "I" without reason. If there are thoughts, that doesn't necessarily mean there's a guy named Rene Descartes thinking them. The premise that thoughts have to have a thinker and that that thinker has any particular characteristics is just that - a premise - and if Descartes thinks he's getting rid of all premises with his statement, he's wrong.Further, it's bad form to use any terms you can't define. Existence is a term which I don't believe can be defined, as is the Self (that is, the "I"). I can go into more detail here if you'd like.Quote:These kinds of "facts" seem to prove a stumbling block of the Path. How does the Path progress the mind of the one that follows it when the entire system is based on the known? Basing the present on the past seems to be a great way to learn everything that is known and/or assumed, but how does this help sharpen the mind towards finding new truths?Well, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. Are you asking how one can progress, mentally, from the known into the unknown? I would answer that you can do that through logic and the particular form of logic that is observation. If one has the assumptions that "All chicken tastes good" and "KFC sells chicken", then one can use that known knowledge to prove the previously unknown fact that "KFC tastes good". Or, through observation, "The evidence of my senses is correct unless I have a good reason to think otherwise" and "The evidence of my mouth tells me that KFC tastes good", so I again get the unknown fact that KFC tastes good by tasting it and seeing.Or are you asking how the abilty to know these facts sharpens the mind? That all depends, I think you'll agree, on what it means to have a sharp mind, and I think I can answer that by responding to your point about typos below.Quote:There are three ways to attack an argument: attack the facts of the argument (i.e. the proper and strongest way), throw the character of the person presenting the argument into question, and assault the method of which it is delivered. Our friend seems to have chosen the third and weakest method by pointing out some glaring typos. I have fixed a few, but let this edit stand as a monument to his unsharpened mindI wasn't aware we were trying to "attack" one another's "arguments". I considered this a thread in which you were asking questions so I could clarify things you didn't understand. If you interpreted this thread as an argument in which you were trying to prove the Spiral Path is hogwash and I was trying to defend it, then your interpretation does not match mine, and I am not interested in continuing the discussion along such a vein. One thing it means to have a sharp mind is to understand why you are doing what you are doing rather than simply doing it out of habit.If I was trying to "attack" your "arguments" through typos I would have posted on this thread something like "Look how much this Harvey Steffke knows, he can't even spell!" Instead, after you IMed me to tell you you had posted your response, I IMed you back by asking what was with all the typos. As an "attack", this is totally unproductive - not only does it not appear at all to the people to whom I am supposedly trying to discredit you, but it gives you the chance to correct the typos so that no one else would see them and have that thought by themselves. Instead, I asked you because one, I was wondering if you were tired or had your cat walking on the keyboard or something, two, I thought your post might be clearer if they were corrected, and three, because I didn't want you to embarass yourself.I am sorry that you view this thread as a "combat" and keep trying to "prove" that I am hypocritical or don't know what I'm doing. It's certainly not my intent to fight you. If you have questions, ask them. If you don't, don't.

[Harvey the Blue]

All right, now that was uncalled for. And things have gotten a bit too close to solipsism to be worth debating.I admit that I originally started this discussion partly because I thought it was "hogwash" but also partly to give you a chance to talk about the Spiral Path. As the discussion continued and I began to understand more of what you were saying, things began to make less and less sense. What is the point of keeping assumptions and facts separate in the mind when a fact is just a guess you are pretty sure about and an assumption is one that you are not all that sure about? Fundamentally, they are both the same. They are both guesses. They, like apparently everything else, lack fundamental solid proof of their truth. They can both be used to prove points or support other threads of mental logic. So I questioned, and I still do question, the significance of keeping them separate as part of a path to a sharper mind or the fundamental necessity of recognizing their differences in the first place.My comment about using the Path to prove unknown truth stems from the idea that, every now and then, you have to discard what you think is true to find something new. For a long time, people thought the world was flat. Why would they not? It does not appear that we are living on a ball, after all, and things would slide off a ball if you put them on the side of its surface. After advances into gravity and astronomy proved this idea false, it was discarded.Now, it seems to me, that this kind of thought process is a stumbling block for the Spiral Path. The Path bases its new truths on the old ones and attempts to make everything click. But nothing "clicks" with the flat world idea. It was likely to be true, but it was wrong, so it needed to go. My question was, and still is, this: how would a school of thought based on concepts like these overcome false assumptions that were taken as true?Finally, my final edit remark. Your response stems from my usage of the word "attack' and its derivatives. I should not need to say that I do not believe you came swinging at me with a hatchet, or that you even tried to blacken my character with sharp comments. You did (and I hope you will agree to this) wish to prove some of my assumptions incorrect and provide evidence of your analysis. Therefore, why the lengthy does of sarcasm about this not being a battle?All of your mental sharpening seems to have given you great skills of debate and reasoning, but very poor senses of emotion, sarcasm, and humor. Please read it again while mentally inserting a winking smiley face in there. I know you can likely do this task, but I will provide one as an aide: It has been entertaining, if not enlightening, to have this discussion with you, but I do not see this conversation leading to anything fruitfull. I have been more then sporting in allowing you free advertising of this religion by using its methods on my comments... far more sporting then most people are towards what I create. But I think we have reached a dead end. Therefore, I will disengage before any long-lasting bitterness can take root. If you wish to reply to my accusations and comments to further demonstrate the style of your Spiral Path, please feel free. Perhaps someone else will reply, but alas, not I.I do thank you for your follow up on the flaws of Descartes, despite it all. Harvey SteffkeJadie's Lesser HalfSaves the worldProud bearer of the Shirerothian Silver Sword Award and Imperial Star

[Mikol Rugal]

Quote:My comment about using the Path to prove unknown truth stems from the idea that, every now and then, you have to discard what you think is true to find something new. For a long time, people thought the world was flat. Why would they not? It does not appear that we are living on a ball, after all, and things would slide off a ball if you put them on the side of its surface. After advances into gravity and astronomy proved this idea false, it was discarded. Now, it seems to me, that this kind of thought process is a stumbling block for the Spiral Path. The Path bases its new truths on the old ones and attempts to make everything click. But nothing "clicks" with the flat world idea. It was likely to be true, but it was wrong, so it needed to go. My question was, and still is, this: how would a school of thought based on concepts like these overcome false assumptions that were taken as true?This is exactly the kind of thing the Spiral Path is trying to solve. Realize that the flat earth is an assumption rather than a fact and one you're only keeping because it fits the evidence. When you get evidence in favor of the earth being round, like the shadow of lunar eclipses or the horizon effect, then the assumption that the earth is flat becomes problematic. Since you realize it's an assumption rather than The Truth, you can throw it out and come up with a better assumption that does fit the evidence, or suspend judgment until you can iron out the problems with one or the other.Quote:Finally, my final edit remark. Your response stems from my usage of the word "attack' and its derivatives. I should not need to say that I do not believe you came swinging at me with a hatchet, or that you even tried to blacken my character with sharp comments. You did (and I hope you will agree to this) wish to prove some of my assumptions incorrect and provide evidence of your analysis. Therefore, why the lengthy does of sarcasm about this not being a battle?Because you said that I was discussing your typos only in order to discredit your argument through sneaky means. If I only wanted to help you find the truth or whatever, I wouldn't have resorted to that kind of underhanded tactic. I don't really accusing me of intellectual dishonesty is funny or what you were trying to accomplish with that, but I suppose it hardly matters.Thank you for your comments. You have convinced me to change the presentation of this material a bit for the Radarasilikan to make it less confusing and less likely to be misinterpreted, and have been a great help in the clarification of certain ideas. I hope you find the truth in whatever form you are looking for it.

[Philip Locke]

Simulations and simulacra, you fools! We're all a mess in this hyperreality! This Hyperborean path would help clear up the lines that are now blurred, the lines that have began to fade as fact and fiction come together and all things are mere reflections of larger simulacra. *fights* Locke.

[Scott Alexander]

*tosses Locke's copy of Baudillaire into conveniently located volcanic crater*

[Philip Locke]

*tosses Scott into a conveniently located volcanic crater* Locke.

[Scott Alexander]

*gets out and brushes lava off clothes*Too many volcanic craters around here! Someone ought to do something about them! It's a bloody safety hazard!

[Philip Locke]

*fills in a few of the craters*Meh. Leave a few open in case any pesky fellows wander through. Locke.

[Scott Alexander]

Of course. *covers particularly hot crater with faux blanket of leaves and puts up signs saying "Stand On Tourist Attraction Mystery Spot, Only 99 Cents*

[Philip Locke]

See? Hyperboreans can have fun! Locke.

[Zirandorthel]

Hmm, yeah, hate to interrupt the overly-intellectual debate and crater-throwing that's going on, but to draw attention to the actual religions..So the Wanderers, what do we Hyperboreans call them? Really, I think this is the most important aspect we can have. In the Bible (Genesis) there're instances where a father names a child whatever because of something or other. So obviously this name means that situation. Also, invoking God's name means that you submit yourself to their power. From what I've seen of them, Hyperborean names appear to be highly descriptive. I don't know whether they'd have the same concept around them as the Hebrews did, I'll wait until one of ye shows up and tells me. ZirandorthelThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar"In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God."-Stephen Braveheart

[Philip Locke]

*tosses Niir into a volcanic opening* Locke
Borelít o'Volus

[Zirandorthel]

You can't just do away with inconvenient questions by throwing them into a volcanic opening!*feels the magma start to eat at his feet*Alright, maybe you can. ZirandorthelThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar"In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God."-Stephen Braveheart

[Philip Locke]

Indeed. The Barber General will be pleased. Er! I mean...Nothing. Locke
Borelít o'Volus

[Zirandorthel]

I knew it! That damnable heathen has been plotting against me! Well, I may die, and my unfashionable hair may be burned to a crisp, but know this, that I spit in his mascara'd eye as I do so! ZirandorthelThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar"In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God."-Stephen Braveheart

[Philip Locke]

You'll have to find him first. *glances at a towering, silver spire that has randomly appeared a few feet to his left*......... Locke
Borelít o'Volus

[Mikol Rugal]

Hear ye, hear ye! The Office of the Elder has declared a new Official Tourism Motto:Borel - Mupalu, sel ayviishoshilo kunir yixine dakarayaneAAAAAGGGGHHH!!!!!"Hyperborea - Excuse me, can you tell me where I can find the open volcanic crateAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!!" Edited by: Mikol Rugal at: 8/24/03 12:11 pm

[Philip Locke]

Catchy. Locke
Borelít o'Volus

[Ari Rahikkala]

The Shrike is your Barber General? I guess that works... Though they go mad they shall be sane,Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again;Though lovers be lost love shall not;And death shall have no dominion.