Economy

[Shacia]

I understand that people would like to initiate some sort of economy in Shireroth. I was thinking it over and came up with the following:1.)You want some sort of viable trading/economic venture in the land.2.)You are currently in a recruiting push.Now, My idea is to combine the two. Since I'm the new person around here, I won't attempt to try and propose how this should be done, as I'm sure there are others around with a better feel for the climate of Shireroth, and would be able to better propose a way that this can be done fairly and in such a way as to promote growth and participation.The members recruited this way would HAVE to be active, though, if nothing else.Thanks!~Shacia...am I crazy?

[Gryphon the Pure]

You are crazy, but that's not an entirely terrible idea. The problem is the same as we've had in the past, that is, while there are plenty of things we could pay money for, there aren't many reasons people would want to have money. While the government could pay people to recruit citizens, what are the citizens going to use that money they get from the government for?We need a market. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[Shacia]

It's a self-appointed task. I'll try to think on it in depth. I do like your idea of the central government paying for the recruitment though, as it benifits the nation as a whole. Edit: OOO! Is there any economy in place in any of the other micronations? I was just sitting here thinking about international trading. Edited by: Shacia at: 9/2/05 12:55

[osmose1000]

Economies are the bane of micronational existance. I doubt anyone has ever help up a successful system for more than a year. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

Enter Zulu 5 Oscar

[Shyriath]

Quote:Economies are the bane of micronational existance. I doubt anyone has ever help up a successful system for more than a year.No, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't give it another try. Let not our jaded minds seek to crush the hopes of those with fresh perspectives... at the very least, we could turn a new attempt into something fun.

[Gryphon the Pure]

I doubt Shireroth has ever held a successful Kaiser for more than six months. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have Kaisers. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[osmose1000]

Please point out where I said we shouldn't have one. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[AngelGuardian93]

Try, try, try, and then pass it on. :PGood luck to the MoT! There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[osmose1000]

Yeah... where did Scott's plan before he went on vacation go? They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Shacia]

Still Thinking things through. For the noob though, can you all sketch out what's been done in the past? Maybe it's something that can be integrated into a new system?

[Bill3000]

Haha, there are entire essays on the failures of micronational economies. I don't have them on me, though... Nor do I know if they are on the Wiki yet. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismPissing off Micras, one nation at a timeProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[AngelGuardian93]

Oh goodness, lets see here... we've tried the donation method last time, where we would donate money (called the Erb) to anyone that made an interesting or witty post or otherwise did something for us, didn't pan out for some reason, but probably the most lasting one we did... There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Shacia]

Ok, now I'm confused. Is this "economy" one where we are going to be using REAL money, or is a fictional one?

[Fax Celestis]

We'll be using real Shirithian money, which has no value in the real world.Basically, monopoly money with a better name. Blindness Is A Blessing

[Zirandorthel]

Back in the olden days, when we use computers made of wooden boxes and coconuts as mouses (you do not want to know what we used as mousemats), there was the intermicronational exchange, and there was quite a good, functioning intermicronational economy. Sander was a dab hand at it, as I recall, as was Iain de Vembria. Of course, dStryker was the originating genius of the currency exchange formula, that took into account all kinds of factors. Like most of his stuff though, the average person can't get their head, let alone their brains, around it. If we're just working on an isolated Shirerithian economy, perhaps it's best not to use those past examples.Maybe we could make some use of the resource map, although if we're going to be trading in actual commodities, then that might get in the way. Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[osmose1000]

We could enter MX2, but first we'd need to figure out a logical way to distribute our money, an exchange rate, and ways of keeping it relatively circulated. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Zirandorthel]

The last of which has always been the problem.. Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[Bill3000]

Yeah. We never have really had much of a supply and demand for economics in micronations, so that has been the major problem that would collapse any system. A successful system would have to enforce supply and demand - there has to be a need for currency that will make people want to use it. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismPissing off Micras, one nation at a timeProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 9/8/05 12:20

[Shacia]

I'm taking into account all the above concerns, and I am writing the initial phase and proposal. It should be up no later than Monday at the latest.

[AngelGuardian93]

good luck Shacia!!! There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Shacia]

Thanks Guardian!I went home and started writing it, and before my brain fried I got about half done. It's 7 pages already in word.

[Harvey the Blue]

http://www.shireroth.org/wiki/in..._EconomiesI show you this not to discourage you, but to tell you why I believe micronational economies have failed in the past. Maybe it will be of some use. Harvey SteffkeSai'Kar's Memories LiveJournal - ranting about Shirerothian issues since fall 2004.

[AngelGuardian93]

Holy Mother of St. Francis! Harvey! AND HE POSTED! *crosses self*I have seen a miracle Father, thank ye! There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Shacia]

Well, this is taking much longer than I thought it would, and im busy at home packing and preparing to move, so please bear with me.

[AngelGuardian93]

Bear with you? Sure. As long as you don't growl at me.*snickers at the pun* There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Kaiser Los III]

Shacia, if you see this, could you tell me when you'll next be around? I *really* want to at least get the framework of the economy up before I leave the Kaisership, and although I would very much like to have your input I can't wait too much longer.

[Kaiser Los III]

Yoinked. - Moose Edited by: osmose1000  at: 9/20/05 13:44

[Gryphon the Pure]

In response to Phase I of the proposal:It is my belief that resources should be equalized by Duchy rather than by county, so as to promote as much equality among the Duchies as possible, as well as to recognize that it is not required of Duchies to support the use of County government. It should be up to the Ducal government to distribute control of resources to its subjects, be they commoners, Counts, Barons, Thanes, Mayors, what have you. While this may be unrealistic in that the resources are not tied to the land, I believe it would be supportive of subducal economies.When I said that resources should be equalized by Duchy, I do not mean that each Duchy should have equal amounts and quality of every resource. I propose that every market resource be available in every Duchy, but that the quantity and quality vary in each on a two-variable scale, where Quantity (N) could be considered the number of units of a resource created by the subdivision each economic term, and Quality (T) could be how long that resource stays good. For purposes of manufacture, we can consider raw resources to stay good for T economic terms, and anything manufactured using that resource as staying good for T economic years.For example, take the following resource distributions:Brookshire:Yardistan:Kildare:With this graphical representation, it is easy to see who controls the market for certain resources. For simplicity, when explaining this, I'll work in terms of months and years, on a scale of 1-6.Yardistan obviously owns the market in wine. It can produce six units each month which will hold in inventory for six months and, once sold, will last for up to six years. Similarly, Kildare owns the market in manufacture, and Brookshire beats all with Stone/Marble.This does not rule out competition in this field, however. Since everybody knows that Yardistan's wine is the best, the majority of wine purchases will be from Yardistan, so their inventory will dip when there is large demand for wine. In these cases, it will be between the two remaining Duchies to compete for purchase.Similarly, there would be competition in the areas where the supplies are more-or-less equal. For example, in agriculture, the difference in quality is not as extreme among the Duchies. Here, price will matter much more in the decision of whence to purchase....Now, in order to incorporate subducal economics into this proposal, let us assume that in, say, Kildare, there is a Barony/County system. Let Justin be Baron of Halluci, Austi be Count of South Dalmacija under him, Bill be Count of New Jasonia, and Shacia be Countess of Vervollkommnung. Shacia may petition her Duchess, Renee, that since Vervollkommnung is a military division, it should hold the majority of industrial production. Let us say that Renee agrees, but also says that some of the production would stay within New Jasonia's market. Since the quantity of industry Kildare produces each month is 6, Renee allows 4 units to be produced within Vervollkommnung, and 2 units within New Jasonia each month.Now, those who wish to buy invest in industrial production from Kildare, the highest quality producer, are given another choice between the production in Vervollkommnung and the production in New Jasonia. Bill and Shacia may compete against eachother for business, or, if for example they drive eachothers' offering prices too low, they may make a truce or agreement who should sell in order to better Kildare's economy overall.Kilare's next most valuable product, Oil, is produced at 5 units per month. Let us say that Bill and Justin make equally convincing arguments for why the majority of Oil should be produced in New Jasonia or Halluci, respectively. Renee may decide that since Justin rules a Barony, he could convince his subjects better to produce higher quantities of oil, and thus alotts 4 units of oil per month to Halluci, and 1 to New Jasonia. However, since New Jasonia is bordered on the Carama Bay, giving it a geographic advantage in oil drilling, she may decide that New Jasonian oil is of higher quality by sacrificing the quality of Halluci's oil. By allowing double uptrades, one could decrease the quality of two units of production in order to increase the quality of one unit of production. Thus, in this case, Halluci would produce two units of 3-quality oil and two units of 4-quality oil, and New Jasonia would produce one unit of 5-quality oil.Renee may also grant Justin control of the 4 units of 3-quality agriculture, since he controls a Barony, on the condition that he trade at low prices for citizens of Kildare. This is not quite a taxation system yet.Justin, being a lazy, fair Baron, grants Austi the labour of raising the agriculture for Halluci in addition to the two units of 4-quality oil. However, since Austi would be the one to sell these resources, Justin demands that 20% of the money Austi receives from his sales be returned to the Barony. This is a tax.Renee, wanting to support the economy of Kildare, puts a 50% tax on imports, that anyone outside of Kildare, selling to Kildari citizens, would have to pay. The Kaiser, wanting to support interDucal commerce, may limit the import tax to 20%. Another decree the Kaiser might make is to require Dukes to assure that each citizen of their Duchies is put in charge of at least 6 Q-square worth of resources (6 Q-square = one unit of 6-quality resource, 2 units of 3-quality resource, etc).In this way, it can be assured that each citizen has a renewable source of income.

[Zirandorthel]

On the creation of a new Ministry, I noticed while reading it that Shacia seems to have left the Ministry of Trade out of her calculations completely, and that the MoT could easily do the duties of her proposed Ministry of the Treasury. Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages