On Fantasy

[Bill3000]

I figured that I would want to bring this topic to debate. I know that I am pretty much speaking to the choir, (At least for Kildarians) but I want to place it here anyway.Fantasy is a thorny issue to most people in micronations. Let's ignore the successionists in this analysis, because most successionists even abhor pure simulationist micronations. (There needs to be a division between the simulationist-fantasy nations and the successionist nations, IMO. This division two completely different sects of micronationalism, the first two usually located solely on the internet, but I disgress.)There are two sides to this issue. The first side is the simulationist side. Most people nowadays are simulationists. They feel that Micras (rather, micronations as a whole) should focus on simulating things that exist only on the real world. I don't think I need to show who feels this way, nor should I actually describe it because I am not a simulationist. Others here can describe this.Then there's the other side. The roleplayers. They tend to interject fantasy, either created, or stolen from real works. Elves are a common example - the quintessence of a roleplaying micronation being Treesia its apocolapsle or Sirimacar post-schism. The focus here tends to be based on things that do not exist in the real world, whether it be fantasy or science fiction. Now, the true part of my post. The existance (well, usage) of magic in a micronation does not mean that full-blown fantasy must be allowed. Nor does it mean that the micronation is limited to a middle-aged based theme like Treesia. It is possible for a micronation to be fully modern, with no fictional species at all, while still having magic. (although usually it would be in the minority.) Elves or Microns do not have to live in a micronation in order for magic to be used there. Indeed, this is the theme of my fictional histories past the Eve of Destruction - magic is just a tool in the Neomagic Age, not something that spawns elves and orcs and whatnot.Another point to bring up are the clashes with simulationist micronations. Take Anthelia, for example. Part of the reason they had clashed with me was that they had thought that fantasy involved mere lore and fiction. Rather, for Elpidos, it was a matter of these things actually exiting in micronations for all simulationist purposes. If something exists in a micronation, or in various intermicronational talks, I feel it is only right to recongize its existance. Thus, I fee lthat it is important to realize that on Micras, magic exists. Simulationist micronations merely do not use it and refer purely to technology.As well, a nation that brings fantasy does not mean that everything is unoriginal. Scott (a known simulationist) had wrote an article about how micronationalim was going stale two years ago because there was an insurgance of fantasy-based micronations. That fantasy-based micronations are too unoriginal. I will reply to this: It is just the same in the other direction, especially today. Most simulationist micronations are taken directly from real life sources, rather than adapting to the world and creating a culture for oneself. Republic of Rio Grande, anyone? If anything, that nation should be Republic of Egale, given the river that they live on, or just come up with a fictional river name. Simulationist micronations can be just as unoriginal as Fantasy micronations - various simulationist micronations steal names of cities directly from the real world. (Remember Interland?)Thus, it's not a matter of fantasy or simulation that is the problem here - it's just a matter of the amount of unoriginality that exists. And that still is a plague upon many micronations.Thus, my points:- There are two types of internet-based micronations that are of importance yet are simular: Simulationist and Roleplaying.- The existance of some roleplaying elements in a micronation does not mean all roleplaying elements are used in that micronation.- Things that exist in a micronation mean that they exist in the entire world, although they might not be used (magic, for example) in pure-simulationist micronations.- Fantasy is not the problem. Simulationist micronations can be just as unoriginal, leading to a stale intermicronational environment as it is today. The problem is instead, unoriginality.- Some sort of intermicronational concencious should be brought upon. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismPissing off Micras, one nation at a timeProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 9/3/05 15:58

[Bill3000]

Quote:You are right that I do not much like fantasy in fictional history, but that is only because I am afraid it makes it too hard to write normal history and then fit it together. Have you ever noticed how few good fantasy books there are where magic exists but doesn't play a major role (Song of Ice and Fire being a major exception)?Mmm. You have a point. I'm not much into literature, however. But isn't the quality of a book related to the talent of the author, rather than the subject itself? If so, it could more more akin to the fact that it is a topic that is not explored much.Quote:Once you've got magic, it colors everything else and completely changes the character of the world in which it takes place. If someone writes something without magic, the question becomes "If there's magic around, why aren't the characters in this story using it?"Then we create a reason why. Think of Cedrism, for example. It is a non-magical religion, but realizes the existance of magic. Magic is not used because they feel that it is too much of a power to be used responsibly, or that it can corrupt. Or it could be akin to that magic has to be "activated" somehow, as if one would have to relearn it. There are plenty of explanations that could be made, but once again, this isn't something that is usually explored.Quote: That is why I tend not to bother you about your pre-Eve of Destruction stories as they provide a good excuse for why there was magic then but not now. Why don't I want those stories as canon? To be honest, mostly because I think they're just bad stories, and because to they must necessarily be either irrelevant to what comes after or an example of magic affecting what comes after.Pah. Well, think about this. I'm the only one who creates them. I get no criticism about how bad it is, how how rediculous things work. How am I supposed to know that my work is bad if no one tells me? Honestly, this is only the second time you have actually said that part of my work is bad. The first time was the old history, made long ago during Jasonia. You criticized it in the Apollo Fireball, and I changed it. Nothing is going to change if I do not get criticism.Quote:To be blunt, I find nonmagical history much more interesting (and in keeping with Shireroth's spirit) than magical history and I don't know to what degree both can coexist.Then perhaps we could explore this - let's try to understand how both can coexist. That is what I have been trying to do. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismPissing off Micras, one nation at a timeProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Kaiser Los III]

Well, I think there are a couple of issues here that you're conflating. There are two different axes at work here: realism/simulationism and earthism/fantasyism (for lack of a better term).Realism as opposed to simulationism is the view that micronations should be one hundred percent real and not have fictional elements. I now some people would argue a micronation itself is simulationist and ipso facto cannot be real, but I disagree. Governments are in themselves a collection of people and codes of behaviour, and therefore our government is as "real" a government as that of the United States is. Our wiki is a real wiki, our site is a real site, our immigration agency recruits real immigrants, our programmers make real programs, our conlanguages are real languages, and our conventions happen in real locations.The simulated aspects of Shireroth are things like Brrapa Lu Eraro, the religion (insofar as people don't actually believe it), Hallucination being a forest, Hyperborea being covered in ice, Kaisers dying, and recwars being fought. Other micronations are much more simulationist than we are - for example, Cyberia imagines having a population of millions of people and a strong economy, and then debates things like what sort of national health care plan they should have and how strictly they should protect their environment.In contrast, earth vs. fantasy is a question of what our simulated aspects should be. If we claim to have a population in the millions, should they be people or elves? If we have forests, should they be full of wolves or full of orcs? And the main reason I oppose most of your fantasy things is that I don't like simulated stuff in general. I would be as annoyed about a male Shirerithian having a female "character" as I would about a human Shirerithian having an elf "character" (the only reason I might be more annoyed with the elf being because it would be much easier for people to spot)In most of the things that have to be simulationist, I am happy if someone wants a fantasy simulation rather than an earth-on based one. That's why the subdivisions, which are really our simulation hotspot, are allowed to be as fantastic as they want. In SNARL, before each war we set rules on what sort of things will be allowed, and you have just as much right to start a fantasy war between armies of magi as the Babkhans would to start a modern war or a war waged with the technology of the Roman Empire (if you can find people to participate).You are right that I do not much like fantasy in fictional history, but that is only because I am afraid it makes it too hard to write normal history and then fit it together. Have you ever noticed how few good fantasy books there are where magic exists but doesn't play a major role (Song of Ice and Fire being a major exception)? Once you've got magic, it colors everything else and completely changes the character of the world in which it takes place. If someone writes something without magic, the question becomes "If there's magic around, why aren't the characters in this story using it?" That is why I tend not to bother you about your pre-Eve of Destruction stories as they provide a good excuse for why there was magic then but not now. Why don't I want those stories as canon? To be honest, mostly because I think they're just bad stories, and because to they must necessarily be either irrelevant to what comes after or an example of magic affecting what comes after.To be blunt, I find nonmagical history much more interesting (and in keeping with Shireroth's spirit) than magical history and I don't know to what degree both can coexist. Edited by: Kaiser Los III at: 9/3/05 18:36

[Zirandorthel]

Quote:Mmm. You have a point. I'm not much into literature, however. But isn't the quality of a book related to the talent of the author, rather than the subject itself? If so, it could more more akin to the fact that it is a topic that is not explored much."A Song of Ice and Fire" is hardly literature, it's a series of fantasy novels. And if you want to be a writer and write about things, then you must first read, and read widely. Otherwise you're like a man living on a desert island whose ambition is to paint English country landscapes.Bill, I don't really understand what you're pushing for here. As Scott has said, you are perfectly allowed to do as you please in Kildare, which is the roleplaying Dutchy of Shireroth after all. But as Minister of the Exterior I don't want to have to pretend I'm sending diplomatic messages by owl post, or that I have to prepare special quarters for the visiting Natopian ambassador because they're a beholder, or that because one of my employees have an elf persona I have to give them a holiday every full moon (with all the inherent difficulties in computing the phases of the moon in California or somesuch place on my part). I know these are extreme caricatures, but as Scott said, once you allow "magic" to infiltrate into what is otherwise quite a down-to-earth and normal micronation (apart from the mangoes and moose and stuff) then you have to cater for it. Which is what, I gather, you're asking us to do. Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[AngelGuardian93]

Where's that hatchet I buried... OH, there it is. *buries it back up*As I said before, Shirerithian's bury the hatchet, but allways remember where it is.For what my opinion is worth, I believe what we have going right now is perfect for both role-players and non-rpg citizens. An official account, and differing religious and social ideas as to how the world works. Personally, I would leave Shireroth if I couldn't role-play. In fact, i'm role-playing right now by using this account. Is the world stopping or anyone having any less fun because my name is "Angelguardian" as opposed to something less flashy like "John Waggersmasher of Yardistan"? Hm? Don't tread on me!and Bill, I am actually a bit confused myself as to what your pushing. Please detail There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[jdsager]

When it comes down to it, I am not a big fantasy fan. But who is more fantastical: the nation that thinks its going to govern a real island or the nation that recognizes its use of fantasy in its culture?Considering one thing right, and another wrong or a bug is completely missing the point.

[Bill3000]

I'm amused a little. I sense a little bit of hostility from you, Eoin, but I understand why; usually when I make a subject like this I want to reform something. But in all actuality, that was not my purpose in creating this topic. I only wanted to make a statement about what my own opinion was regarding this issue, and have people debate it - not actually change anything. Despite what you may think, not everything I say anymore is meant to shoved down your throats. Quote:I know these are extreme caricatures, but as Scott said, once you allow "magic" to infiltrate into what is otherwise quite a down-to-earth and normal micronation (apart from the mangoes and moose and stuff) then you have to cater for it. Which is what, I gather, you're asking us to do.Why, exactly? Recongizing that something exists does not mean that it has to exist in that nation. To take your elf example, a real world example could be a christain country that contains few-to-no muslims. Islam could still exist, but that doesn't mean that a nation would have to cater to it.At least in SSHIT, from what I have seen, magic is not denied to exist; indeed, it is a major factor for the beginning of the nation. I distinctly remember a topic where Scott had mentioned that the tecnomaeji should have shunned things such as the cult and other RL magic-related things in the history - instead, Erik rebuted it with that magic was supposed to be real, just not messed with. This is technically in conflict with a complete nonmagical history, but I would need confirmation from Erik. Either way, that's not very important to this conversation.It could be possible to think of a reason as to why magic is used by some and not others. It shouldn't be that hard if thought was put into it. Personally, I think it's better than saying that "every fantasy-related thing here in Shireroth doesn't really exist in micronations when those who are in fantasy think that it does exist," or something to that extent. I personally think that realizing the differences would be better. You may say, "what's the point? It makes no sense." I simply say, "Because we can."Blah. This may seem like I am telling you to do something here, but that's not what I mean. It's more akin to "This is my opinion of what we should do, and I want to discuss the merits of this idea with other people," rather than my usual "This is what I want to do, and I will not stop until all of you agree with me." Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismPissing off Micras, one nation at a timeProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 9/4/05 14:14

[Zirandorthel]

Quote:I sense a little bit of hostility from you, Eoin, but I understand why; usually when I make a subject like this I want to reform something.I'm not being hostile, Bill. At most I'm being sarcastic. And as far as I can tell, you do want to reform something: our attitude towards fantasy. Just because you don't have to make a confusing Landsraad proposal to peddle it doesn't mean it's not a reform..Quote:It could be possible to think of a reason as to why magic is used by some and not others.I still don't understand precisely what it is you're trying to propose here. How would magic be "used"? I can't see any proper use for it except in a roleplaying sense, and this has already been catered for. In your own Dutchy, might I add, of which I am also a citizen.Quote:Personally, I think it's better than saying that "every fantasy-related thing here in Shireroth doesn't really exist in micronations when those who are in fantasy think that it does exist," or something to that extent. I personally think that realizing the differences would be better. You may say, "what's the point? It makes no sense." I simply say, "Because we can." Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[osmose1000]

Quote:John Waggersmasher of YardistanSomeone draw a pic. He is the new leader of the Yardistani Army. Eoin:1.It's a debate. Nothing will come of it beyond some changed opinions.2.What he means is that it is better to say, "Yeah, there's some magic here, but I prefer not to delve into it." rather than "No magic!" because, with the first choice, you are confirming it's existance but declaring you won't use it, while with the second one, you start all sorts of conflict with those who do recognize and use the fantasy-elements such as magic. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Zirandorthel]

Quote:To take your elf example, a real world example could be a christain country that contains few-to-no muslims. Islam could still exist, but that doesn't mean that a nation would have to cater to it.The difference there though is that Islam will still exist whether the Christian country acknowledges it or not. If I choose not to acknowledge elves, they won't exist. If I choose to acknowledge elves, they still won't exist. When we are dealing with fantasy or fantastical ideas, I think we should abandon all correlation with the real world. The danger is that we would have to.If this is a debate, then I see even less point to it. Magic is "allowed" in some sense, ie. in a roleplaying sense within "participating" fiefdoms, and I really don't see how it could be used in any more concrete fashion. Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[osmose1000]

Religion. Fictional History. Etc.And the point of debate is to have two sides express their beliefs so that new ideas may be put forth to change ideas and form new opinions that haven't been considered before. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Bill3000]

Quote:The difference there though is that Islam will still exist whether the Christian country acknowledges it or not. If I choose not to acknowledge elves, they won't exist. If I choose to acknowledge elves, they still won't exist.This is incorrect. As there are elves within the community of Shireroth, as there was within Menelmacar and other micronations of the past, (And no, we're not talking about beholders here) elves existed. It's not a matter of myth here, unless you are somehow distinguishing between Scott being a Kaiser who will die after he resigns and someone being an elf in a micronation. Both are simulated. But it's not even the point of elves that I am bringing up.Even if you do recongize the existance of magic, that does not mean the existance of other races, nor does it mean a slippery slope. The simplest type of magic is just another way of blowing stuff up, after all - hardly something really unique, compared to the technology level we have here. This says nothing about any form of conjuration, nor does it imply the exisyance of other races. It just means that it is a tool that is available that some decide to not use, or do not know of.There's no real difference between the "roleplaying" sense of the duchies and the simulated positions that we actually have.And yes, you are right - in particular, fictional history, is where this would be the most important. I'd still like to point out that magic is already part of the fictional history as well as Cedrism, for those who have looked into it. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismPissing off Micras, one nation at a timeProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 9/4/05 17:45

[Ryan]

Let. It. Go. Bill. Useless art is simply tolerated vandalism. I am a vandal.

[Fax Celestis]

There is a very SERIOUS difference between roleplaying fantastical elements into our culture and our positions within the government.The key difference is this: our positions within the government (whether or not our government actually owns territory or whatever measurement you want to use for nationhood) are real. I do not pretend to be the Minister of the Interior; rather, I am the Minister of the Interior. I do the job, physically do the job, every time I boot up FireFox and browse to the Shireroth forums.But no matter how you slice it, I'm still not really a Hunter of the Stag. They're a fun side project I came up with, a little something to help me write. They may share some of the same beliefs I do, may even qualify as an independent entity at this point, but I am still not a Hunter of the Stag.That is the difference, Bill: that our simulated government is still real because we actually do it. But magic and elves and other such things are not real because we don't actually use magic or talk to elves.We use Kaiserial death because it makes things cleaner in the Fictional History, yes, but we have had Kaisers (and Dukes and other various important positions) who just disappeared; no death, no abdication, no self-firing, just gone.And we still work.Bill, let's leave it at this: making some overarching statement about how "fantastical elements are appropriate in all parts of a micronation" is out of line, because they're not, unless the nation is designed that way. Shireroth is not. Blindness Is A Blessing

[osmose1000]

Warvoid: Let it go, yourself.Fax: They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Ryan]

Pardon me, but I don't argue over the same things for years on end.What this whole topic boils down to is essentially the same idea in seperating church and state. The two should'nt mix. And the same goes for culture and state. Especially so in Shireroth.Shireroth is too culturally diverse to impose restrictions and guidlines upon itself and, ultimately, upon its political apparatus.If Bill wants to be a robot, or an elf, or a transvestite will-o-wisp, then by all means he should do so. But that should have no bearing on politics or his job and duties within the Shirerithian government. Useless art is simply tolerated vandalism. I am a vandal.

[AngelGuardian93]

Quote: or a transvestite will-o-wispHow does THAT work out? Does it have a pink center with purple and rainbow colors on the outside?? There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[osmose1000]

No, your missing the point. He just wants to discuss it, but your trying to tell him that nothing's going to change.It's only because it's Bill. I bet that if I had started this discussion, I wouldn't have gotten everyone saying "It won't happen in Shireroth." They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Bill3000]

Quote: Let. It. Go. Bill.Isn't that a completely and utterly futile statement? Name one time I actually did let go of an issue that I cared about. Either way, this is a debate, not a push for reform.Quote:That is the difference, Bill: that our simulated government is still real because we actually do it. But magic and elves and other such things are not real because we don't actually use magic or talk to elves.You have a point here, and this is where I had forgotten. I shouldn't have brought it up - the government is different from the situations that I am talking about. What I am talking about is the fictional history, SNARL, and the like - things were the simulationist parts of the nation exist.Quote:Bill, let's leave it at this: making some overarching statement about how "fantastical elements are appropriate in all parts of a micronation" is out of line, because they're not, unless the nation is designed that way. Shireroth is not.Is this what you are getting out of my talks here? I apologize, for that is not what I mean. What I mean is simply this - the use of magic, whether it would be in fictional warfare, fictional history, or whatnot, does not have to imply fantasy creatures. Also, the existance of such in micronations means that it does exist in the same way that a tank or information-aged city exists in Micras - they are all simulationist things which exist here. Thus, I just think that it should be recongized rather than denied - there's no need for segregation.Quote:Shireroth is too culturally diverse to impose restrictions and guidlines upon itself and, ultimately, upon its political apparatus.What I am talking about here isn't restrictions or guidelines - if anything, it is lessening restrictions by recongizing the existance of the different parts of a culture. This isn't religion where one would have to recongize the existance of a god in order for there to be harmony; the myths and such of different religions can differ. However, the existance of fantasy elements in our simulated world is a different matter.Quote:If Bill wants to be a robot, or an elf, or a transvestite will-o-wisp, then by all means he should do so. But that should have no bearing on politics or his job and duties within the Shirerithian government.I agree with this statement - it is not like we are living in a kingdom of Microns, for example, where the traditions and behavior of the Microns would greatly affect how the government would act. Nor is this what I am talking about - once again, I am talking about the simulated aspects of the world.Quote: No, your missing the point. He just wants to discuss it, but your trying to tell him that nothing's going to change.Precisely. And I will repeat this with emphasis:I just want to discuss this. I am not proposing any changes. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismPissing off Micras, one nation at a timeProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 9/5/05 19:02

[Bill3000]

More debate stuff, from my lifejournal.Quote:I finally came up with a more coherent argument against you on the magic thing. When you're writing fiction, you have to come up with the rules which your fictional world uses. The most popular by far way to do that is to just coopt completely the rules of the real world, because we know that they're realistic (duh), interesting, and don't have any loopholes. The other option is to custom create a set of rules for your world in which some things that you can't do in the real world you can do there, some things you can do in the real world you can't do there, etc. Thus, accepting magic into a work is never, if you're doing it right, just saying "let's have magic!", but rather coming up with a whole new system of physical law (which you do quite well in Soloralism). Thus, in the Harry Potter world you have a subgroup of people able to do magic, but only with a wand, whereas in the Tolkien world you have very few people able to do magic, and it's generally the province of elves, demons, demigods, or people with special relics.Thanks for the compliment on Soloralism, heh. I had pretty much made it a "goal" of mine to make magic appear in a way that it makes sense with physical laws that are similar to the real world - I know that is technically impossible, but I hope to make it as feasable as possible.Regarding Harry Potter - it more of has to do with sensitivity toward magic rather than wands; note Harry's incidents with magic when he was young before even knowing that he was a wizard.And regarding magic here, I think I made some examples of reasons of why others choose not, or do not, use magic; in particularly, the sensitivity toward the usage of magic (which I gave examples of reasons of how it could be affected in Soloralism.)Quote:If we were to have a realistic history, then the rules of the real world would be intact, and we would know exactly where we stood on things. As soon as we say the rules are different from the real atworld in any way, there is a paradigm shift, so that even having one tiny magical element in the entire world implies that we're operating under different rules and we can't just accept reality as a given.Point. Part of the problem is that a realistic physical universe is logical because of the intensive research that there has been toward it. (Physics and whatnot, duh )Quote:Thus, having, for example, a Soloralist Mage brings with it the entire Soloralist metaphysical structure, means we can never be sure about stuff that in the real world would be obvious (like the dead staying dead) and generally changes the genre.I understand your point here. However, I have tried to make Soloralism work where these cases would be very select. Even if there was undead, for instance, that would also be related to how sensitive the area is toward magic, and would usuall be the case of necromancers and the like, rather than the dead spontaneously rising from the dead. So it would happen in a place such as, say, Treesia, but not Babkha, because Treesia is more sensitive toward magic and the like. So while the genre as a whole would change - the genre is also not fixed, as it is possible for an isolated nation to not notice the various abnormalities in other nations. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismPissing off Micras, one nation at a timeProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Sgt Jester]

Now, the true part of my post. The existance (well, usage) of magic in a micronation does not mean that full-blown fantasy must be allowed. Nor does it mean that the micronation is limited to a middle-aged based theme like Treesia. It is possible for a micronation to be fully modern, with no fictional species at all, while still having magic.

A simple application of Clarke's Law, to wit:"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistnguishable from Magic" "It is not what remains undone, but rather what remains to be undone. In other words, give the buggers an inch, and they'll muck everything up to a fare-thee-well."

[Kaiser Los III]

Pagan magic as opposed to what other sort of magic?

[AngelGuardian93]

In a controversial move, the High Priest of Cedrism officially recognizes and deems the use of pagan magic to be wrong. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find. Edited by: AngelGuardian93  at: 9/9/05 20:31

[AngelGuardian93]

*sigh*I meant the word 'pagan' in the sense of foriegn magics, as in, don't use magic from the Treesian faith, or from Babkha, etc etc.Bill: There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Bill3000]

Probably as opposed to the magics used by the gods. Divine magic generally seems to be a different source of magic from arcane magic.Even though it makes sense given Cedrism's philosophies, positions, and fictional histories, it's not exactly a good thing for you to offically declare it. The Hunters of the Stag, a sect of Cedrist faith, use magic. (And in the most fundamental form of magic too, through naturalistic means. You can't get more pagan than that.) Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismPissing off Micras, one nation at a timeProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 9/9/05 21:32

[Osman Shahanshah]

Now we are discriminating against the magi are we?

[Shyriath]

In a controversial move, the Head Priest of B'caw officially recognizes and deems the use of non-spicy-chicken-based magic to be wrong.

[Kaiser Los III]

In a controversial move, the Kaiser of Shireroth unofficially recognizes and deems the use of any magic to be impossible.I win.

[david northworthy beckfor]

In a controversial move, the Kiaser of Shireroth unofficially recognizes and deems the use of any magic to be possible as long as it involves naked chicks.

[Ryan]

I endorse the Kiaser's proclamation!! Useless art is simply tolerated vandalism. I am a vandal.