Our Kaiser ... ruler of Babkha?

[Erik Mortis]

Yes.. this may play very well with the Commonwealth idea...

In which case, we could proly make a law to make this all make sense...

[b3n|<3r|\|]

The Shah appoints the judiciary and provincial governors (Satraps) who each have a seat in the Majlis i-Satrapan or Meeting Place of Satraps (Parliament), and can make decrees (Farmans). As Hesam says, I believe these days it's more a titular position, with the Shah simply signing into effect whatever is put under his nose, but he still has the power to... well, do a lot of stuff.

Personally I'm shocked by the all-but-unanimous decision of the Babkhan people to depose their Shah, but there we go. I think we better just run with it and hope Shireroth isn't subjugated any time soon.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Ric is a level headed guy, and a good friend. I doubt he would see anything malicious about it. He's also a team player so he knows very well what has to be done. If he returns he would be given special veto. Besides, I think the Babkhans are working out an alternative to declaring me Shah outright.

[Jacobus Loki]

Steward. Stewarts used to be Stewards, and then they moved to London and messed up Scotland. And England, for that matter.

[Andreas the Wise]

Ah, I was about to ask that. So the Shah is effectively the Queen/Governor General in a constitutional monarchy, not like the Kaiser in our system?

Well, that solves the two head of state problem. The head of state of Babkha (the one with the actual power) is the Grand Vizier, the Shah is merely the old and experienced micronationalist appointed to see things don't get out of hand ... rather like our own Prophet/Arbiter combination.
WAIT (see's Benkerns post below, didn't realise this went onto two pages) ... is it that he has lots of power that doesn't use it, or has no real power ... anyway, the little I know of the system, the impression I get is he's the Australian equivalent of the Governor general and so he's not the head of state and the MCS problem is solved.)
For Ari: http://www.micras.org/forum/viewtopic.p ... c&start=90 about four posts down, and
Also the HCE Matbaa-Houland joint head join thing ...
The 1/3rd rule was something I read in my search through MCS archives, I'm not sure if it's still in effect ...

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I might be the only one, but I want our Kaiser to have as much power in Babkha as possible!

I finally figured out the proper analogy - Charles V. A lot of very powerful people got married and had kids, and their kids had kids, and those kids got married and their kid was Charles V, who ended up being the heir to the throne of Spain, Burgundy, and the Holy Roman Empire (plus most of Italy). They didn't become the same country or anything. Their kings just all happened to be the same person. It worked pretty well. Obviously it was a bad idea to mess with any of those countries, because then you'd be messing with Charles V, and he could crush you like a bug.

Since Hesam is not a Babkhan citizen, he hasn't broken any laws. He just followed the laws in a creative manner, and creativity's not a crime. Because he hasn't broken any laws, Jake's decree is an illegal rebellion - however, Jake is a Yardistani and therefore is legally entitled to start illegal rebellions, so he hasn't broken any laws either. Since no one's broken any laws, no problem.

I support resolving this situation in the most interesting way possible. Give Hesam full Shahanshah powers in Babkha, let him keep full Kaiser powers in Shireroth. Then encourage him to appoint the same person as his successor as Kaiser and as Shahanshah (as long as it's not Ardy, that'd be overkill). Create a dual monarchic tradition that would cement our alliance and make us the indisputable center of the micronational world. And of course keep Jacobus as Steward. Having a Steward and Kaiser who fear and mistrust one another is much more interesting than the other way.

Actually, we can do better than that. Let's start a campaign to make Hesam president of Gralus.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Finally! Someone understands the aim! Via the proposed Commonwealth, there is a potential greater than what most micronationalists are willing to consider.

[Erik Mortis]

Did you ever hear me complain?

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Scott, you make sense, but the reason people are so worried about this move is that this is BABKHA.

From my experience in Babkha and out of Babkha, Babkha is something that always has to be acknowledged and feared. It somehow always wins, maybe not in the obvious way, but in any given conflict or crisis, it comes out on top. Because it's BABKHA! And I love Babkha for this, as well as its culture, military, and general atmosphere, hence why I signed up to become a citizen.

Now this works great when we're allied with them. Yeah, these guys are our mates, they always win ergo we always win. However, the problem began when Hasan became Kaiser. There was this issue... what if, Babkha, with their world-renowned SAVAK and general shiftiness, wants to get one over on Shireroth for whatever reason? Okay, okay, that shiznit all ended when Hasan revoked his citizenship in Babkha. But people were still worried. And now, he's becoming Shah of Babkha. Woah!

The question becomes is Shireroth going to get one over on Babkha or vice versa? I'd prefer neither and I hope that will be the result, and it may, given the exposure and argument there has been.

I think the primary reason for the worry is the difference in our cultures. If we were both Persian-themed or... Shireroth-themed, it'd be fine. But there is this weird sense of unbelonging when it comes to Babkha vs Shireroth. During my campaign for GV in Babkha (which, needless to say, failed miserably), I was attacked for my links with Shireroth. Similarly, the Babkhans here are forced into their own little corner in Elwynn. :P It just doesn't work.

However, I don't think anyone cares about what I say, so I'll end with: Scott, that'd be nifty, if it actually worked. So let's give it a shot!

(Note to any Babkhans reading this: I am still opposed to the removal of Ric, traitors )

[Andreas the Wise]

I'd still like to get these two questions answered:
Does being Shah of Babkha and Babkha not being a duchy of Shireroth count as the Kaiser not being fully devoted to Shireroth?
and
Does the Kaiser have time to devote himself fully to Shireroth and also succesfully function as the Shah of Babkha (because we wouldn't want the Babkhans to get a half-hearted ruler, since they're our allies)?

Scott, you thing makes sense, but the question boils down to do we follow what seems right, or what seems constitutional? I say seem because at this stage I'm not sure about either. The two above questions are important. The first one more constitional, and the second practical. Answer them suitably and then, as far as I'm concerned, the problems end and this move can go ahead.

On a joint monarchy, I'd have to say I think Hasan is the only one who could pull it off, or if not the only, one of few. He's been doing a good job as Kaiser, and I'm quite confident that if he'd had a little more time in the role before this situation emerged you'd all be certain on that. But, as Benkern points out, Babkha and Shireroth are very different cultures. Would this mean that any future Kaisers have to understand and be active on Babkha as well? The powers good when we have the people capable of holding it. It's a disadvantage for one of the countries when they have someone clearly qualified for the job, and the two someone's are different people ...

On the President of Gralus option, well, I was planning to not run after this term ... just make sure you meet the three month rule ...

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Well, Here's my thought.

Since Shireroth decided to activate the office of Steward into an standing position, it takes the same meaning as Prime Minister. The concept I had was that Shireroth and Babkha would both run themselves with the Steward/Grand Vizier doing most of the "national navigating" independently of each other. Since a Kaiser or Shah is Royalty, it is generally the position of the Monarch not to interfere with the internal mechanisms set forth by their respective governments unless it becomes a question of national security. As monarch, my roll would essentially be to arbitrate when needed, add my advice and promote the welfare of the Imperial Republic or Kingdom and to work on special projects where the effort is needed.

Citizens of one would not necessarily be citizens of the other, nor would anyone be forced to change their culture. In fact, I doubt that Shireroth or Babkha would have any more interaction with each other than they do now. Up until recently, Jacobus had been doing a fine job as Steward. I fully supported the concept of the Commonwealth as Shireroth's expansion was one of my mandates. I see this as a natural extension of that policy since it was Jacobus himself who suggested I be recognized as Head of State for commonwealth members. Will Shireroth make Babkha its puppet state? no. Will Babkha make Shireroth its puppet state? No.

The aim my friends is mutual prosperity. Since this community came about, there have been so many "glorious mergers" and "tragic schisms" that there is no point in reinventing the wheel. This option is something else. Perhaps a trend in the hobby. A natural progression in the course of micronational history. Just as Shireroth has many Duchies and Babkha has many Ostans, This Empire could potentially have many Kingdoms. Isn't that the nature of Monarchy?

[Jess]

I dont understand

[Andreas the Wise]

I do. Though I think the Kaiser has a little more power than the Steward, but still. You speak wisely, my Kaiser, and have calmed my fears. I throw my full support behind this proposal, on one condition ...

You write up those Banking Laws sometime before Christmas

[Prodigy Almighty]

I stand behind the Mango Throne, and from what I know of Babkha, I will do my best to keep Babkha from - as Benkern put it - "putting one over on Shireroth" as long as I and my Kaiser live!

[Kaiser Hasan I]

I swear Andreas it's nearly complete, simply needs a few more points to ensure no loop holes exist.

[Andreas the Wise]

Good to hear. I'm good with loopholes, I'll double check it when you're done ...

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Damn, there goes my beach house fund....

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Okay, gotta make this point quickly as I'm stuck in a tiny Cambodian border outpost with only $5 in my pocket and therefore am completely unable to justify being at a netcafe (long story) but here goes:

First of all, the Arbiter declared this legal. That's why we have a judiciary. To declare stuff legal, and stuff. If you think you know more about Shirithian law than Erik does, you're wrong.

Second of all, this is just a civil war. It's not worth getting upset about. The whole point of Shireroth is that people don't attribute evil motives to other Shirerithians, form factions, and then start hating them. If you don't like what Hasan's doing, that's a political difference - and although that's not QUITE meaningless, political differences are not worth leaving Shireroth or resigning positions over. If people left every time we had a civil war over who the Kaiser should be, we'd be...we'd be Cyberia. Politics isn't worth getting upset about, because it's tangential to what Shireroth is. Hasan could change the forum background to a picture of camels, and that wouldn't be half the affront to Shirerithianness that quitting in a huff over political struggles will be.

Third of all, if you look at the proposal closely, it's REALLY favorable to Shireroth. Basically, it's the Babkhans promising to make our Kaiser their ruler, with the possibility of them agreeing to pledge loyalty to the Shirerithian throne in general, without asking anything of us in return. That's a pretty big coup for us. Lemme quote something Ardashir said that everyone needs to take a good look at:

1. It is not possible for Babkha to become a duchy of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth, the constitution prohibits active subordination to a foreign entity (this is a response to the debacle of the Grand Commonwealth).
2. The Shirerithian Commonwealth proposal is "doable" as it represents a dynastic policy that lies outside of the remit of the constitution.
3. There is no reason that the Kingdom of Babkha could not accept the subsequent Shirerithian Kaiser as Shah also, even were it Jacobus.
4. As has been noted elsewhere a dual monarchy would strengthen the Mango-Camel Alliance.
5. I rule myself out of any succession either in Shireroth or Babkha.
6. In Babkha the role of the Shah is to ensure good governance and adherence to the laws and customs of the Kingdom. History shows us that if the Shah had been Shirerithian certain policy mistakes of the past would have been averted (Bastan Jazireh, GC, SPEAR).
7. Both realms operate under what is in effect an oligarchic system of government and there is a long tradition of nobles offering good service in both nations (Zary, Jadie, Ric &etc).

Fourth, Ben made a good point that Babkha is sneaky and should be treated with suspicion. No one knows that better than I; I was the one in charge of dealing with their plots for a couple of years, and sometimes I even succeeded.

But I'm just not worried here. For one, there is nothing irreversable about this. If it's an evil Babkhan plot, then as soon as the Babkhans show their true colors, we have a good-old-fashioned revolt, throw off their yoke, install a new Kaiser, and hopefully get some activity out of it. We know we can do that because it's what we do best.

For another, the rule with evil plots is to follow the self-interest. Babkha's self-interest here doesn't lie in turning us into a puppet state, because they know they can't (you're the one talking about how smart they are; give them some credit!) Their self-interest lies in doing exactly what they say - linking the Babkhan and Shirerithian thrones to make both countries more powerful. Because of the circumstances of the linkage, Shireroth comes off looking like the senior partner. They have no incentive to deceive us, because deceiving us helps them less than being honest would.

Now, I will say I'm wary about any idea that reduces the Kaiser to a figurehead, and if that's part of the commonwealth proposal the Babkhans are drafting, I'll recommend it be modified. And I am a little worried about the succession - there are a few good candidates, but Hasan could ruin everything by naming someone unacceptable.

But, as usual, I'd rather try it out, have it fail, and get some fun and activity out of it then have our descendants remember us as the people who were offered control of the Babkhan government on a silver platter and turned it down.

But the whole "try it out and then revert back to normal" only works when people have the good sense not to make threats to quit and resign and stuff!

[Maksym Hadjimehmetov]

Wow... it'll be like a new Austria-Hungary

[Kaiser Hasan I]

That's the word around the watercooler.

[Erik Mortis]

Similarly, the Babkhans here are forced into their own little corner in Elwynn. :P It just doesn't work.

I think that's their choice more than anything.

The Kaiser can be more figurehead without losing any power. And that has been happening under Hasan. The Steward has become the one doing day to day operations, and the Kaiser the overseer. I think it's a good arrangement, and when this lil crisis is over I hope we can go back to it.

And in truth, the Kaiser of Shireroth is more powerful in Shireroth than the Shah is in Babkha, from what I can tell. So this wouldn't give THAT much power to the Kaiser over Babkha. They would still do things as they always have. And if we go into this looking at it as an equal partnertship, then no one has power over anyone. Just the Kaiser-Shah gets more power.

Which does bring up... Does this mean we need a new Title? oh just call him Kaiser for Shirerothffairs and Shah for Babkhan affairs?

[b3n|<3r|\|]

The Shah has... unlimited powers I think, though that's worth checking. Aside from the Decrees/Farmans he has some important roles in Babkhan day to day happenings, for example he must call parliament to session, and he has other powers as detailed in my post above.

While it is true to say that the Shah is mostly a figurehead these days, that's because Rashid Shahanshah is both frequently away and not the most assertive fellow in Babkha. It is madness to say the Shah (as a position) has no power, or even he has very little power; constitutionally and in practice he has the most power in Babkha, end of story. I defy anyone to say otherwise.

And Erik, even if the Lesser Zjandarian situation is performed by Babkhans themselves, it still underscores the fact that our cultures are not the most compatible ones on Micras.

[Erik Mortis]

I don't really deny that last point.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Well, it was my aim to keep both titles separate as well as both nations. As stated I figure the Kaiser would be Kaiser in Shireroth and Shah in Babkha. Or to demonstration via a signature block:

In Shireroth:

Kaiser Hasan I
Kaiser Of The Imperial Republic Of Shireroth,
Shahanshah of The Kingdom of Babkha


And in Babkha:

Hesam Jayatar,
Shahanshah Of The Kingdom Of Babkha,
Kaiser Of The Imperial Republic Of Shireroth,


In my case I suppose I could mix it all together since Shah can also be a prefix:

"Kaiser Hasan Jayatar Shah"


But that would muddle things and I'm not sure if that is what people would accept.

[Andreas the Wise]

I prefer the signature block idea ...

[Liam conToketi]

On pulling Gralus into this mess, absolutely not. I've already accepted that it was the worst micronational decision I have ever made. I may have left, but I'd like to retain some pride in my work. Should such an act as described above comes into existance, I will retake my empire and most gladly rip away the larger half of Gralus.

[Jonas]

Mess? What mess?

[Liam conToketi]

Let's start a campaign to make Hesam president of Gralus.

...The simple thought disgusts me... *shudders*

[Kaiser Hasan I]

That's rather strong language for an official in my government. If you object, thats fine, but let's attempt to keep the "disgust" of my presence to a minimum shall we?

[Andreas the Wise]

That was a joke (the original statement) clearly ...