Move to officially boycott and prohibit the ForumList...

[Erik Mortis]

http://www.micras.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=21
http://dr-spangle.com/Forumlist/

I move that we as a nation boycott and prohibit the entry of any Shireroth related material to this project and its self proclaimed "culture council".

The very idea that an outside organization feels they have both the right and authority to pass judgment on the culture of nations is something I find pretentious at best and repugnant at least.

For those not aware. This organization has taken it upon itself to create a means by which nations may submit items concerning the culture of the nation for judgment. At which point a panel of judges rates how cultured that item is. By this means they hope to be able to rank nations as to their cultural development.

I am of the opinion this is one of the worst ideas in the history of bad ideas, and the very notion that someone thinks they have the right to judge our culture based on their criteria, in an official manner is insulting to the Sovereignty of this great Empire and its peoples.

Thus, I move that we put forth a Proclamation that the Imperial Republic of Shireroth condemns the very idea of this organization and boycotts it use officially; that no material related to Shireroth may be submitted by any person, whether they are a citizen of Shireroth or not.

[Andreas the Wise]

Erik, I don't mind if Shireroth boycotts the culture council (if they don't give us the maximum culture rating instantly they're clearly not during their job. They shouldn't need to actually SEE anything to give us the rating). But the Forum List itself is so useful, and I can't say I'd boycott it myself ...

[Ari Rahikkala]

I didn't expect to be the guy to ride to the Culture Council's support, but...

First, just for clarification, there are three separate systems at play here. One is the ForumList, which is an excellent resource which I use constantly these days to look up URLs (micronational forums tend to have problems getting high up in Google searches). Then there's the Culture Upload system, a recent addon to the ForumList that's currently being used somewhat inconsistently by a couple of nations. It's about simply uploading files of cultural significance to a central place. Finally, there's the Culture Council, a five-man council that will grade submissions to the culture upload system and thereby assign nations culture ratings.

Now, I agree with Erik that trying to judge the value of a nation's culture based on what people have happened to submit to the culture upload system is a bad idea. If people ignore the whole thing it will lead to nothing - if, on the other hand, a lot of people turn out to care about what kind of numbers they get assigned, there will be massive flamewars over it.

The thing is, why should we care? We're sitting (maybe stagnating a bit) securely here, having been around developing Shirithian uniqueness for long enough that we can pretty much just ignore those numbers. I'm fairly certain that young, well-organised, creative nations like, well, Novatainia, will beat us in the culture rating department unless we do some serious work to dig up the better ones of our historical works... but really, why care? Can the word of some random council of outsiders cheapen or elevate Shireroth?

In fact, I don't really understand this insult to our sovereignty you're referring to. If I went around personally giving nations culture ratings, would you mind? We have been micronationalists for a very long time, we should have grown used to the idea that YAMOs are not authorities by now (even if the MNN crowd keeps trying to change that :-p). The culture council is just a bunch of... people (*). Their word wouldn't be any more of an insult than mine.

I say: Let's not adopt this... assholish... policy. Not when we could just do the diplomatic thing and make at least some effort to participate and make the council work. I'm not going to try and predict what kind of effects a working and accepted culture council would have on the microworld, but I believe they would be positive in general...


(*) Granted, if it turns out that the system actually works and people accept it, then it might end up affecting the MCS too - another scenario that we might just want to be prepared for.

[dr-spangle]

Erik, I'm sorry you feel that way about the culture council idea but it might please you to know that even I feel that way about the Culture Council part, I don't think it will ever work, no ones actually electing people quick enough, and I doubt any of them would actually vote quickly or often enough.

But as Ari said the ForumList is 3 parts, ForumList, CultureUpload and CultureCouncil and only the CultureCouncil is a terrible idea.

Also the CultureCouncil (if it ever actually materializes) would not just rate nations on the uploaded culture.


I've had an idea that would be somewhat dubious but possibly better...

Erik, what about if everyone was allowed to vote, do you think that would be better or still terrible?


P.S. If I don't hear from James and get some reassurance on the CultureCouncil system I'll most probably scrap it, leaving the CultureUpload as that seems to be OK

I'll put a poll on MCS in the forumlist section

EDIT: http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21229#21229

[Jacobus Loki]

(Oh, I hate it when the muse is upon one and one looses a post)

Eric, I hear you. Shireroth has no need to prove herself to anyone. We are the Rome of micronationry. I actually see us as the Empire in the age of Justinian. Resurgant, proud, going forth into the world to restore civilization!

The very idea of someone daring to judge the millenial culture of Shireroth is repugnant. A Senator attempting to explain history to a Visigoth might feel that way.

The fact is however, that the cultural storehouse of Shireroth is such that we could bury any rival (with the possible exception of Talossa).

The best way to insure the survival of the Empire is to absorb the barbarians, to make them into us, to use their strength and fury in the defense and expansion of the Empire.

I would accept a resolution rejecting any judgement of our culture (our others, BTW).

But as dr. Spangle is a Shirithian, and was one of those who helped keep the candles lit in the darkness, I think (with that minor exception) that his work be declared a Shirithian cultural treasure.

This could be used as great advertising and as a recruitment tool. Those who come and add to our richness will judge us well. The others, 'tis no consequence, they are welcome to their yurts and black tea.

[hypatias mom]

...but I like my black tea...

I agree that judging another micronation by the content of its culture is wrong. Each nation develops according to her citizens' imaginations and personalities, which is why they so different. I do agree, though, that many who are new to micronations will have no idea of Shireroth's rich culture and fictional history, and uploading some of this might actually attract people to us. Grading cultures smacks of elitism, but allowing others to see the richness of our culture, without grading it according to someone's idea of correctness or variety, is something I would approve.

[Andreas the Wise]

I I'm fairly certain that young, well-organised, creative nations like, well, Novatainia, will beat us in the culture rating department unless we do some serious work to dig up the better ones of our historical works... but really, why care?

I'm most amazed at this comment, Ari. I thought we're doing alright, I wasn't sure we were doing that good. (Though I'd happily settle for Gralus in second place behind Shireroth as the most culturally developed nation).

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Boycotts are noob. The culture council is a crap idea, I agree with you Erik, though not quite as vehemently. Let it be, and hopefully die on its own. I like the forumlist.

[Jacobus Loki]

...but I like my black tea...

With or without yak butter?
Washed down with some kvass.

(Ancient Byzantine senator fading, feeling the influence of a Mongol horseman. Feeling urge to play polo with the head of an enemy.)

[hypatias mom]

Actually, I prefer it with a bit of sugar and milk, as is the custom in my Scottish grandparents' home. I am afraid the yak butter and kvass are a bit esoteric for my taste. And I've never been anywhere in cemtral Asia, so I've never slept in a yurt, either.

[Erik Mortis]

I win!*






*I was just amusing myself by making a fuss I don't care that much...

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Huh?

Forum list is clearly a good idea. Culture upload is clearly a good idea. Culture council is a good idea in theory and might spur cultural growth among some of the younger nations. If we don't agree with their decision, we can safely ignore it.

Most likely if we're as great as we think we are, the Culture Council will give us a great rating for us to be proud of, and move on. If they don't, either they're wrong or we're wrong, neither of which would exactly be shocking news.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Now you're making me wish the Culture Council hadn't failed so early, Scott

[Erik Mortis]

That's what I meant to attack originally. I didn't quite understand how it all tied together. Forumlist is okey.. Culture Council is lame...

Four legs good, two legs bad...