Pre-Landsraad: Bill: The Mango Map

[Andreas the Wise]

Babkha for instance could issue a map detailing the correct borders of the satrapies on Eura with all the barbarian interlopers purged but that would not make any difference to reality other than perhaps to make Spangle unduly paranoid.

lol, how true ...

[Maksym Hadjimehmetov]

So, the Mango Map is just a map of Shireroth at its largest extent whilst on the MCS? I suppose that would be useful if we were ever to re-expand around the old territories lost in the Atkins Reduction.

[Kaiser Mors V]

I'm still pissed we got condensed... it totally fucked up the whole "the sun never sets on the Shireroth empire" thing we had going.. and it was outside the purview of the organization to do such a thing...

[Maksym Hadjimehmetov]

I'm still pissed we got condensed...

You have every reason to be.
Maybe we could ask for an expansion. The rule that no nation can control more than a third of the MCS map was created before the Atkins Reduction, so technically we can still expand back to that size. But no more.

[Kaiser Mors V]

This is VERY true...

[Harald of Froyalan]

Wasn't the rule that a Nation may not own more than one third of the map abolished under the Vehendi administration?

[Kaiser Mors V]

All I know is it was made specifically to target us...

[Shyriath]

*Ponders the bill*

I think that if we're going for the idea of a map to show Shireroth as it SHOULD be, rather than IS, the bill will definitely have to be re-worded. Ceasing to be the official representation and becoming a historical alternative, as the bill describes what would happen to our land on the MCS map, does, in fact, make it sound like the MCS is going to have something to say about it.

This is not to say, though, that I don't approve of the Mango Map; it's just that I would advocate it as a representation of an eventual goal, rather than an attempt to state facts. Make a map of Shireroth using, say, our current dark red color, as on the MCS map, and say "that's what we have now"; then, say, in brighter red, add in all the stuff we once had and say, "this is what we intend to get back, once we can get our hands on it". And once we do get a piece back, just change the color. It'll be a nice little way to track our progress in expansionism, or lack thereof.

In fact...

What if we made a joint map of Shireroth and Babkha lands that should exist.. As I recall there would be no overlap...

Erik, if we do that, make sure the Anticans are invited. Despite their lack of... well, you know, forums, we all need someone to go to war with.

Maybe we could start a little Irredentists' Club, eh? Maybe see if there are any other ations that hunger for their ancient glory?


...Oh, by the way, THIS part of the bill I very much like:

2. The Mango Map shall depict any and all land claims that Shireroth has ever held on the map of Micras throughout its long and glorious history provided always that territory belonging to a Sovereign Nation that was only temporarily part of Shireroth and which has lawfully seceded may be omitted from the said Mango Map.

Because it reminds me to bring up a piece of land that we seem not to have had for a long time, and that I've always wondered about. I direct your attention to this map (which, by the way, shows something that is probably very close to Shireroth's maximum extent), and particularly to that area north of Norfolk and the Raynor Isles. I assume, based on looking at other archived maps, that that was formerly the territory of Mondesia. Now, my question is: how did we LOSE that land? Did it somehow secede, or *Rubs hands together* might we have a chance here to acknowledge a VERY old claim?

(Of course, actually getting ALL of that land back would, judging by the present claims map, involve annexing most of what's now Phedodah in Antica, as well as most of Babkha's Chubzamin lands... but even just the unoccupied bits would make for a nice addition, I think.)

[Kaiser Mors V]

Someone gave up Mondesia in one of our MANY attempts to appease the MCS... all in the vain attempt to get them to not just TAKE lands... which obviously failed...

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

wait, when did they take land last? Last I heard Shireroth hadn't lost anything since, since...

Actually, I can't think of a time when you actually lost something.

[Kaiser Mors V]

Atkins.... They took land and condensed us artificially into mostly just 1 hemisphere... Stripping us of that expanded empire feel.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Someone gave up Mondesia in one of our MANY attempts to appease the MCS... all in the vain attempt to get them to not just TAKE lands... which obviously failed...

If I recall correctly:

1. Babkha trounced South Mondesia in a recwar.
2. Peter Little ceded South Mondesia to Shireroth to prevent Babkha getting it.
3. Babkha decides to enslave the simulated population if it cannot have the simulated territory and naughty games involving Mondesian harem slaves who are in fact shaved donkeys became a staple in Treesian and Babkhan humour. Mondesian lands ceded to Shireroth on the MCS map.
4. At some point Iain Vembria becomes Baron (I think?)...
5. Mondesia becomes a part of the Duchy of Lotharia, a bit of an odd choice as it is half way round the world from Mondesia.
6. Mondesian territory on the MCS is abandoned by Shireroth - the title remains with the Duchy of Lotharia, which itself gets disbanded somewhile later.
7. Babkha colonises Mondesia through the Terre des Riches, Palastina and the puppet state of Woodstania.
8. Antica expands to swallow up all of the former Mondesian territories bar those occupied by Babkha and Woodstania.
9. Antica overruns the Terre des Riches during the War of the Mondesian Liberation. Technically it only leases the territory from Babkha thereafter but Babkha left the MCS and the Republic of Antica died and or had territory reductions. Transaction therefore presumably void.
9.a. Woodstania also quits the MCS in a copycat move to keep in Babkha/the Grand Commonwealth's good books.
10. Grand Commonwealth dies, Babkha returns to Micras, reoccupies Palastina. Woodstania has bloodless coup, installs pro-Babkhan government and returns to Micras.
11. Babkha annexes Woodstania (Chubzamin).

[Kaiser Mors V]

That sounds about right...

[Maksym Hadjimehmetov]

I don't know if making maps of what our nations should be would do anything rather than bring us out of favour with the MCS admins. Maybe we just ought to stake territorial claims to any nation which does inhabit formerly Shirereithan land in order to start a few wars and gain it through right of conquest. The MCS can't interfere with that and many new nations wouldn't be in any position to make demands once they see the Shirereithan Armed Forces on their doorstep.
Although I do think that one of the most important ways for any micronation to survive is to curry favour with the new nations as soon as they arise, it is also important to add some intrigue and diplomacy which several people- Ardy, Ben, and myself included- feel is so lacking in micronationalism these days. Claiming foreign territory as part of a 'Megali Shireroth' idea to restore former glory will give us a Causus Belli on many nations and thereby provide an incentive for complex treaties, assassinations, and hopefully RecWars.

[Jonas]

I have a great plan... in a coalition with Batavië and Babkha we start a World Recwar. We conquer al the land...

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Works for me.. oh, we had best invite the Anticans as well.

[Jonas]

Works for me.. oh, we had best invite the Anticans as well.

Great! But the problem is... who is the enemy?

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Everyone else.

[Jacobus Loki]

Not everyone else. Merely those who stand opposed to us. We need fellow travelers, and those willing to fight proxy wars for us.

[andelarion]

All the land we've ever had:

http://www.shireroth.org/wiki/images/f/fa/Empire.PNG

[Harald of Froyalan]

That is the Mango Map.

[Harald of Froyalan]

BTW Shirlan should be added as well.

You may find Shirlan on this map. It is the somewhat butterscotch-colored country located north of Lothlaria.

[Liam conToketi]

Holy hell! It's amazing how many cities in the Duchy of Arminy (and surrounding area) line up with cities in Toketi.

Torshaven is now Rielrar
Iohnesburg is now Krerdar
There's an unnamed city at the end of the peninsula that is now Crydee
Lac Glacei is now Hamuji
Derby is pretty close to Pragulinia

Astonishing...

[hypatias mom]

You mean to tell me that the Lac Glacei Liberation League now belongs to Toketi???

[Maksym Hadjimehmetov]

Meh. Don't know if I like all the Dune names such as Muad'dib. Should be something more original.
What's with all the weird neo-American states in Southern Apollonia?

[hypatias mom]

Erik himself said that when the names were originally given to parts of Shireroth, he was steeped in various game and book references, but that they have now been part of Shireroth for so long that he feels most names have now become part of our country and he doesn't want to change them now.

[Maksym Hadjimehmetov]

Ah well. I suppose there is a point to that. There are a lot of original names too, though- but then again that's only because my knowledge of RPGs and Fantasy Novels doesn't go much beyond the first Dune book and the Lord of the Rings, so there are probably a lot more that I don't know about.
At least, I hope that Shimmerspring, Crestfall Downs, Lywind or Modan-Lach aren't originally from World of Warcraft or something, as I've already done a bit of work on the origins of their names. What's the orgin of your land's name, O Countess?

[Harald of Froyalan]

Meh. Don't know if I like all the Dune names such as Muad'dib. Should be something more original.

Fax changed the name Muad'dib to Naudia'Diva for various reasons quite some time ago.

[hypatias mom]

I mean the change to the name Mango. That seems way beyond reasonable.

[Jonas]

All the land we've ever had:

http://www.shireroth.org/wiki/images/f/fa/Empire.PNG

All the land... gone...