Lands to be given up

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:25 pm

I would like to take this opportunity to urge the honorable voters of the Landsraad, as well as the equally-honorable Non-Voting Nobles, to accept the proposal of Fax Celestis to surrender to the MCS certain vacant lands. Why should this proposal be accepted? Because I, for one (though I hate having to give up land of any sort) would rather choose the land we loose than have it chosen for us. Thank you.
EDIT: I like Propositions A, C, or D.

Post by **Scott of Hyperborea** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:22 pm

I support giving away some lands, but Fax's proposals seem to go overboard and threaten some of our core lands. I'd rather lose the oversea empire than the Benacian continent and the islands, which are the most culturally important.

We can give up Balduvien, Comstokia if John agrees to it, Lac Glacei and Cognito, Lothlaria, maybe even Mar Sara. I wouldn't mind losing the Raynor Isles and Norfolk, if other people aren't too attached to them. But the proposals that take huge chunks out of Elwynn, Muad'dib, Hyperborea, and Goldshire are just wrong. We have had some of those lands for as long as the MCS existed.

And if you give up Hyperborea, I will throw a fit. I won't be able to rationalize it, but I will. Just giving fair warning.

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:26 pm

Actually, we didn't have Nauda'Diva since the MCS existed - it was Machialavian territory.

Goldshire originally was smaller, and Elwynn was originally Mach as well. I agree with Hyperborea, but Goldshire? Not as much.

My sentiments with Mar Sara exist as well as said in the Landsraad.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:41 pm

I would like to note that my proposals are a bit extreme, but it's easier to go down then up.

Lord Farewell · Post by **Lord Farewell** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:37 am

From an Elwynnese point of view

I think proposal A would be best. I can agree to have parts of Elwynn removed, but I have quite an affection for the very northern part of Elwynn. And removing Eliria would be a big no-no.

If all of Elwynn is removed, then I feel that I won't have much more of a home here. I think I'll just emigrate then.

Look, I don't want to blackmail you or anything. It would just feel so empty for me without an Elwynn to be in.[/i]

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:01 am

Well, I should hate to lose Hyperborea and other core lands, especially in Goldshire. And Norfolk? Well, Nick doesn't seem very active anymore, so I wouldn't hate to lose it, but I don't know if counties who joined Antica post-merger are protected by the Treaty of Aquilaria or not. In short: I would like to get rid of overseas, non-core lands that nobody is using.

And Scott, it would be perfectly rational for you to throw a fit about losing Hyperborea. It has always been your county, as far as I know, and it used to be your nation. It's only natural that you should be very attached to it.

Jupiter · Post by **Jupiter** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:38 am

From a purely military standpoint,

Prop A loses us Fort Cognito and costs us land right up to across the river from Shirekeep, a bad move stratigically.

Prop B loses us Bifrost Air Base, Fort Cognito, and Naval Station Norfolk, currently all three service academies. Furthermore, by losing Hyperborea Proper, we lose our ability to launch a two-pronged strike at the northern continent, should the need arise.

Prop C loses us NS Nevermore, Ft Cognito, and NS Norfolk, and leaves the Kitanus Fields isolated militarily.

Prop D loses us Ft Eliria and Ft Cognito, as well as opening Shirekeep up to a land invasion with no buffer land in the way.

---

We can move the Army Academy from Fort Cognito to Fort Amity in any event, since no matter what we lose Ft. Cognito. In the event of B or C, we can move the Naval Academy from NS Norfolk to NS Musica, which is probably a better idea anyway.

As the MoMA, I recommend that Prop C be rewritten to remove the Raynor Isles rather than North Novi D. Should that happen, I fully support Prop C.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:42 am

Well, I think we've all made some good points. Now, we must trust in our honorable representatives in the Landsraad to make the right choice, as they always do.

*Tries to keep a straight face.*
*Gives up and laughs until his sides split.*

hypatias mom · Post by **hypatias mom** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:33 am

May I ask why my county's future seems to be in jeapardy? I have just become countess of North Novi Dalmacja, and now I read that my county may be given up. I really must protest. Please tell me I am mistaken. Thank you.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:45 am

Madam, I am sure, if it comes down to brass tacks, that a different county may be sacrificed in order to spare your own. Do not forget that Scott's land of Hyperborea is also in danger, so it's not as if you are alone.

Jupiter · Post by **Jupiter** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:54 am

Like I said, switch Norfolk with NNoviD in prop C, and everybody's (not unhappy).

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:41 am

And as I have said, I don't think we'll miss Norfolk too awfully, but I do not know if it may be gotten rid of, as per TOA requirements.
"SUB-ARTICLE B: The Kaiser may not remove counts from native Antican counties, except in cases of treason, without the consent of Delphi Augustus, or, should Delphi Augustus leave Shireroth, his successor as Count of Aquilaria. Such an action on the part of the Kaiser would void this treaty."
It says "...native Antican counties..." so I guess Norfolk could be gotten rid of with little difficulty. Sorry for being belligerent, but I had to make sure it was legal.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:03 am

I don't see why people are giving up counties or lands as per their present boundaries. Mar Sara, for instance, can reduced to a tiny enclave around Seleni, freeing up the rest of the island. The same can be done with other lands.

Lands I'm pushing for removal include Comstokia, Balduvien and the enclaveture reduction of Mar Sara. Lands that I'm reducing voluntarily include Bjorngard, which will become a coastal strip and a colony on Drakenoya and Lac Glacei, which will occupy the coastline of the lake (virtually keeping the width of Inner Cognito all around the lake).

Take a bite here and there and it all adds up.

Jupiter · Post by **Jupiter** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:04 pm

My apologies, I didn't mean Norfolk, which already goes kaput in prop C. I meant the Raynor Isles, which nobody seems to be using at the moment.

Post by **Scott of Hyperborea** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:29 pm

Removing Norfolk would not violate the Treaty of Aquilaria. The Treaty of Aquilaria applies only to lands that were annexed from the Dinarchy of Antica. Norfolk is Shirerithian territory that was added on to the Duchy of Antica at the request of its former count, Foghorn. Therefore, we're within our legal rights to get rid of it, although if Foghorn's a citizen (and I can't remember if he is) we should ask him first.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:38 pm

Nope, he emigrated.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:56 pm

Very well.

Jupiter · Post by **Jupiter** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:12 pm

Prop E is probably the best of all worlds so far, although it still loses NS Nevermore, NS Norfolk, Ft. Cognito, and Ft. Eliria. Maybe take out the upper part of Elwynn rather than the lower part that's currently gone?

And I still say leave all of North Novi D and get rid of the Raynor Isles.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:31 pm

Perhaps we could keep these stations as enclaves?

Jupiter · Post by **Jupiter** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:55 pm

I'd rather not, actually, for two reasons:

1. It would discourage new people from setting in the areas mentioned, and

2. If new people did, we'd have to negotiate with them to keep our bases.

No, better to build new ones and place them near the new borders.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:21 pm

The reason northern Elwynn was preserved was because of Ric's attachment to it, as well as the fact that the active Elwynnese hail from there.

Jupiter · Post by **Jupiter** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:24 pm

Fair enough. I suppose I can replace Ft. Eliria too.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:32 pm

I looked at Prop. E. I especially like it because it makes Antica look less wierd by removing what I call the "cancerous lumps" of land.

hypatias mom · Post by **hypatias mom** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:40 pm

The entire reason I wanted North Novi Dalmatia was so I could develop Port Nevermore. Is this scheduled to disappear from Shireroth along with the naval base?

Jupiter · Post by **Jupiter** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:43 pm

Not if I can help it, Ma'am.

hypatias mom · Post by **hypatias mom** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:53 pm

Thank you for your support, Jupiter. I have been working on developing that area since I became a member of Shireroth and was placed in your duchy, nearly a year ago. My county is now part of Kildare, by contract, and I believe my duchess should also have a say in countering Proposition C. The thought of giving up much-wanted land, that is being developed, is hard to understand.

Jupiter · Post by **Jupiter** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:05 pm

*nods* Take a look at Fax's Prop F - it's much more NND friendly.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:03 pm

Yes, it's very good, but I DEFINITELY oppose Bill's latest proposition, which completely snips off my County of Kaikias.

EDIT: Sorry, I looked closer, and it became apparent to me that my county will merely be moved southward, although it now looks sort of squashed. But that's a small price to pay!

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:06 pm

It doesn't snip it off. It places it somewhere else.

Ryan wants to remove Antica almost entirely and place it into something Norfolk sized, Treaty of Aquilaria or not.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:07 pm

Read the edit, please.

Treaty of Aquilaria or not.

That's a bold statement!