The Paring Proposition (MoCa Summons)

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:11 pm

The MCS has made it apparent (in this post, in addition to other places) that there are going to be some changes done. Either we can lose land as we choose, or we can lose land as they take it from us.

This is entirely fair. We use a service that the MCS provides, and if things stay as they are, the MCS will not be able to provide its service anymore, as there will be no product (that product being land).

Therefore, I put before the Landsraad the following proposals to lessen the amount of land we hold, and thereby choose which land we lose and which land we keep.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:15 pm

Proposition A removes land that is unused while still trying to keep currently held lands together. It pays no heed to historical precedent, but does allow all currently active counts to keep their holdings.

Land to be removed is colored in Ghastly YellowTM.[/img]

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:26 pm

Proposition B does it's best to maintain the historical lands of Shireroth, that of Brookshire, Goldshire, Kildare, and Yardan. Unfortunately, this setup displaces quite a few of our current nobility, including myself.

Lands to be given up are colored in Ghastly YellowTM.

H4773r 3lfs0n · Post by **H4773r 3lfs0n** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:31 pm

Baron H4773r 3lfs0n wrote:although i appluads your resolve Ryan, and completetly understand...

and Fax, i respect you as one of the rightfull elders of this, our great Imperial Republic....

I still think giving up land in fairness sounds silly to me. Not that i dont beleive in fair. if i had any subjects I would treat them fairly (initially) but thats not how the world works.

as far as I know, all of our land is rightfully (by default or other means) Ours. and we have no reason to give any away unless of course because other nations are going "you have too much" and if so... too bad! as i said above, fairness be hanged.

If someone wants to start a new nation theyt should go through the MCS and whomever is control of the land (if the territory in question is currently contested) but really? I think pewople should spend a GOOD amount of time as a piss on citizen before moving on to it.

any way, im rambling now.. get my meaning anyhow?

so yeah... thanks for hearing me out.

Also, please exlude Ran, should this push through as I have plans for it as per the idea i discussed with you (fax). Its name inspired me and I would like it as a neighbor to Lunaris.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:37 pm

Proposition C attempts to spread the damage by taking a little bit from each "section" of Shireroth. oldshire receives the leftover as a brute-force shot to the gut. It also does not take into account territorial congruity.

Lands to be given up displayed in Ghastly YellowTM.

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:41 pm

This is all one big joke, and the only one who gets to laugh at it is Ryan.

We shouldn't have to lose any of our land. We haven't warmongered any of our land for a damn long time now, and I resent their attitudes that somehow we must be evil because were bigger then other micronations.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:47 pm

The final proposition, Proposition D, does the opposite of Proposition C: instead of spreading out the damage over as wide an area as possible, it focuses it into the northern part of the Benacian continent and Cognito.

Lands to be removed are colored in Ghastly YellowTM.

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:48 pm

I could at least stomache D. Thoughts?

H4773r 3lfs0n · Post by **H4773r 3lfs0n** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:54 pm

i really like D. but C looks more plausible.

Although Goldshire is one of our Heartlands (as far as i can tell) i do think it should be given up to be cultivated by new nations...

also, where do i go to see a map of micras? to see the other nations close to us geographically

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:55 pm

I will remind the Landsraad that all parties currently on the MCS map will be asked to remove some of their land, not just us.

H4773r 3lfs0n · Post by **H4773r 3lfs0n** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:57 pm

that also sounds palateable

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:59 pm

Current MCS Map Found Here.

H4773r 3lfs0n · Post by **H4773r 3lfs0n** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:13 pm

only aoler language can describe what i see on that map

ZOMG! WTF MATE! *points at the shitload of green to the east*

people bitching with all that there. and i'll admit, we are a HUGE foorint on the map, but so is australia, usa, russia, and china!

the only way any one will be really happy is if we give up that chunk of goldshire.

and i really dont agree with that kind of land sacrafice.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:31 pm

Those are my proposals. Does anyone else have ideas?

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:17 pm

Wait, do I even NEED a summons here? I'm the damned Provost and Baron of Antya, but whatever.

My comments on each of the maps:

A) The major problem for me here is Mar Sara. I want to keep Mar Sara, for a couple of reasons:

- It is the only land remaining from Tapfer and Jasonia that is not Amity. As such, it has quite a bit of significance to me. The only problem is that I do not have a count so that I could take control of the land.

- Related to the first one - Mar Sara was manipulated from out of my hands. North Mar Sara was taken as a form of negotiation for Erik's support of Tapfer's secession from Tymaria. South Mar Sara was part of Elpidos, and became part of Menelmacar. When it died, it was given to Shireroth for no real reason. Taking away Mar Sara would be a mockery for Jasonia, Tapfer, Elpidos, and myself, regardless of the fact that it currently has no use, but it is still very sentimental to me. Let's not include the fact that the existance of Mar Sara has helped with Garla Solarian, since Micronae's cities were very similarly worded to Mar Sara, allowing a connection between the two.

B) This does not maintain the historical lands of Shireroth. Losing Hyperborea is an absolute nono, probably the worst land possible to lose land other than say, Shirekeep. The loss of Nauda'Diva? Are you really willing to do that? Moreso, are other people willing? I know that you have a successful culture surrounding it.

C) As A, plus the loss of Kildari land (including Norfolk) is a big nono.

D) This is the most reasonable, although it would come at a price with completely removing Elwynn. I would still think this would be unacceptable, although this is still the most reasonable.

By the way, I believe that John Sager has said that it is okay to remove Comstokia's land. As well, I even don't even think we need to remove this much territory. However, I would highly suggest a reorganization of Shireroth Proper's territory. Shireroth Proper has been huge as a result of the very early days of the MCS, in the times when all lands were given huge territories. Funnily enough, Goldshire's reduction in D is roughly the same as what Goldshire had as a territory originally.

I will try to come up with my own proposal(s) that will satisfy my own critera.

We shouldn't have to lose any of our land. We haven't warmongered any of our land for a damn long time now, and I resent their attitudes that somehow we must be evil because were bigger then other micronations.

Might I remind you that this does not even have to pass the Landsraad? If Shireroth's territory is reduced, that's it - Shireroth has no say in the matter. Shireroth is a member, a participant, of the MCS, and has no right to the land as-so-far as a character in an MMORPG has a legal right to their characters. And frankly, Shireroth should lose land. While we havn't warmongered land in a long time, a lot of the land was "warmongered" and manipulated through machialavian politics. Shireroth is as large is as it is today simply because Erik co-founded the MCS and annexed Kildare, which, I'd like to remind you, was an entire nation as the UAS. We have gotten... actually, ALL of our land has been gotten through shifty deals. Amity, Kildare, Antica, Jaris, Lac Glacei and Cognito, Mar Sara, Nauda'Diva; the only one I can think that is a non-shifty deal is Comstokia, and we're getting rid of it because John says that we don't need it.

We don't have the activity anymore to support the land. Land is not a right in our simulationist micronationalis hobby. And as Ryan said, this is simply a matter of choosing which land we are giving up before he decides it unilaterally.

And as I'd remind you, removing ourselves from the map entirely is simply not an option.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:00 pm

Paring Proposition E is probably the most forgiving plan, as it removes very few areas in their entirety, instead choosing to cut them back a bit.

Lands to be returned to the MCS are colored in Ghastly YellowTM.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:51 pm

The final Proposition, Proposition F, is exactly the same as Proposition E, except it trades North Novi Dalmacija for the Raynor Isles.

Lands to be ceded to the MCS are colored in Ghastly YellowTM.

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:09 pm

And then there's Proposition G, which is far niftier becauseit was made by me and approved by Ryan:

Lands to be ceded to the MCS are colored in Ghastly YellowTM.

I also propose Preparation H, which says "screw all the maps" and replace Shireroth with the HARDMAN song.

Hypatia Agnesi · Post by **Hypatia Agnesi** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:57 pm

I will further review the various plans later, but I will say immediately that I refuse to support any plan that would remove any lands currently held by nobility, unless those nobles VOLUNTARILY moved somewhere else. A good example of this is my mom, who holds North Novi Damacija (set to be removed or cut down under C and E, respectively).

H4773r 3lfs0n · Post by **H4773r 3lfs0n** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:15 pm

G!

if we have to give up land who better to propose what to give up than those who want the land, and it gives less land than fax's plans.

I say G.

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:03 pm

We can't give away Antica's land though, that *has* to be in the treaty somewhere...

Post by **Shyriath** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:12 pm

I like Plan G the best, although I echo Greg's note that the Treaty of Aquilaria might have something to say on the matter.

Of course, if Ryan has something else to say on the matter, the point might be moot...

Sir Ophiuchus · Post by **Sir Ophiuchus** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:06 am

Proposition D looks good, or G. Re G, though, I'm not sure what Ric thinks about the paring of Bjorngard - I think he has plans for that.

By the way, Bjorngard is part of Cromsfist, not Woodbridge.

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:19 am

We can't give away Antica's land though, that *has* to be in the treaty somewhere...

Of course, if Ryan has something else to say on the matter, the point might be moot...

The MCS is above any and all treaties. Ryan himself wanted to reduce Antica to territory the size of Norfolk because of its huge territory inflation, us having only one active citizen there. In other words, this is not a problem, as it would probably have been reduced anyway.

I'm not sure what Ric thinks about the paring of Bjorngard - I think he has plans for that.

Ric does not control Bjorngrad, Ryan does, so Ric doesn't matter here.

Ryan said it was fine.

Time for voting.

Antya votes YEA for Prop G. (5)

H4773r 3lfs0n · Post by **H4773r 3lfs0n** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:29 am

Vorpmadal votes AYE ON G. (4 or 5, not sure yet)

Sir Ophiuchus · Post by **Sir Ophiuchus** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:01 pm

Curse my slip of keyboard! I MEANT Ryan. No offense, Ryan.

Well then, Cromsfist votes AYE for Proposition G (8).

H4773r 3lfs0n · Post by **H4773r 3lfs0n** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:06 pm

Bill3000 wrote:I also propose Preparation H, which says "screw all the maps" and replace Shireroth with the HARDMAN song.

That song is fairly cool. apparently im a gay plant, according to a hard man. disturbing to say the least.

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:52 pm

This bill passes 17(18?)/0/0.

And I have to say that I'm peeved at the low noble turnout. This has got to change.