Banning: Laws and Reprocussions,

[Scott Alexander]

Thank you for your input, however, here's how I see it.If the Babkhan Majlis passed a law doing something like changing your national flag, then the next day, if the Majlis changed its mind, it could pass another law repealing the old law and changing the flag back. In Shireroth, the most powerful institution and the one that makes many of the laws is the Kaisership. It was a Kaiser, Mors, who banned WJ back in 2002. Therefore, it would take a Kaiser to repeal that law, but if the current Kaiser wished to do it, it would be entirely within her powers. I think that everyone who wants to see WJ unbanned is advocating that the Kaiseress be the one to do it. For the Minister of Information or someone to just ignore the law would indeed be a bad precedent, but the Kaiseress does not ignore the law because her word *is* law. Since everything is but an apparition, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst out in laughter. - Longchenpa

[Philip Locke]

I am thinking it's a signThat the freckles in our eyesAre mirror images and whenWe kiss they're perfectly aligned.Motherfucker. Locke.
Can humans do what prophets say?

[Hesam Jahandar]

Yes well that is the very fact. But the Majili is not the Judicial branch, We have tribunals (which I myself have been infront of ) that deal with this sort of issue, If a person is banned in Babkha that sets a precident for others, and cannot be repealed. I am unsure (excuse my ignorance of your governmental system) if you have such courts or if everything is ruled by the executive and legislative. In this case as Shireroth is somewhat of a fuedal nation, I do think that you have quite a mess as it seems the Kaiser has carte blanche for all matters, and it also seems the Duchies enjoy this same privilage except when the kaisar is involved. Now I know Erik has been the traditional leader of this nation for some time, but if it is the current leaders decision then why was the debate ended on Eriks word? And if he is able to quote legal precident as a vessel to uphold this particular law then wouldnt it stand that ALL laws be upheld? Again, as it is the fuedal nature of Shireroth to give power to the reigning crown, then shouldnt it be decided which laws are still valid? if not it seems a Duke or executive member can simply misuse the law to her/his advantage and ignore the law when it is not in the interests of the executive member. Laws only have value when they are ALL followed, to pick and choose is only to negate the purpose of law in the first place. So in other words, if using the fuedal system where the Crown is the law, then there is no purpose for laws at all. which would make the law that Erik quoted unimportant. War Trophy Liberated From Menelmacar god of warProud Owner of a Real Horrorshow High-Speed, Low-Drag Sig!

[david northworthy beckfor]

Quote:. So in other words, if using the fuedal system where the Crown is the law, then there is no purpose for laws at all. which would make the law that Erik quoted unimportant. wrong.laws in a nation where the crown is the law are there so that the people can know what the crown will allow, with out haveing to ask about every single litle thing, every time it reapeatedly come up, as the law records what the disision would be. war trophy liberated from Babkha by the Federated NORworthic Liberation Devision (FNORD)

[Hesam Jahandar]

Its obviously not my place to say whats right or wrong in your nation, but after reading the threads involving "The-unnamed-ONe" I really have to wonder. Everyone including the Kaisaress was ready to allow this person back into the nation, Atleast to some degree. Now, All of a sudden Erik comes in with a piece of year old law that he seems to be using in a personal vendetta against the individual. How can I say this? well because by the admission of your own citizens who stated that they would "Just ignore" the other laws. Well here is a big problem, Shireroth which has been around for sometime and constantly portrays an image of itself to be a highly intellegent nation, cannot even maintain legal precident. Ok fine, you want to envoke a year old law that had its virtue in a long dead nation (Tymaria) and was based on a an old dispute, No problem, that is the law. But by picking and choosing which laws you want to uphold and which ones you will sweep under the carpet, you are corrupting the law, which negates the purpose of having law itself. If you want infalible rule for your nation that is also your choice, but if you pretend to have a legal code that you only sometimes follow, this only degrades your nation into an elitist club. This is the current state right now. I would go on about other things, but I know how sensative alot of you are so I'll leave it at that. I'm sure many a paragraph written above will be quoted and deconstructed bit by bit, as is the custom here, so allow me to finish that this is not intended as an attack on your nation, but only an observation. Babkha and your "republic" have had fine relations in the past but I felt that this issue was important so I decided to figure this out. War Trophy Liberated From Menelmacar god of warProud Owner of a Real Horrorshow High-Speed, Low-Drag Sig!

[Gryphon Avocatio]

Quote:But by picking and choosing which laws you want to uphold and which ones you will sweep under the carpet, you are corrupting the law, which negates the purpose of having law itself. If you want infalible rule for your nation that is also your choice, but if you pretend to have a legal code that you only sometimes follow, this only degrades your nation into an elitist club. This is the current state right now.quote]You know what, he's almost completely correct. There is some amount of erring here, but..wow...Quote:Now I know Erik has been the traditional leader of this nation for some time, but if it is the current leaders decision then why was the debate ended on Eriks word? And if he is able to quote legal precident as a vessel to uphold this particular law then wouldnt it stand that ALL laws be upheld? Again, as it is the fuedal nature of Shireroth to give power to the reigning crown, then shouldnt it be decided which laws are stilHe's right again. If we say that a law stays law because that is tradition, than we must concede that all laws shall function that way...that didn't come out right...oh well...and I agree that if jadie wants to repeal the law that she should. Period. Erik is not (yet) the leader of the nation. We need to (and I think erik would agree with this) ween ourselves of his pressence. Historically, we collapse when he disappears (I've been here for several instances when this was the case), and we need to move away from this affliction.Right now, though, Shireroth is in chaos, and we are vulnerable. Erik has experience, so I'm all for listening to him...for now. Right now, we need to build up strength. We're working on it, but we have a long ways to go. -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - "Minsiter of Dance, Pants and Funny Walks" - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas "You're intense and driven. That can lead to a lot of good things. It can also lead to high blood pressure and a closing of the arteries." -Mr. Mathews -- "I think that people who drive Hummers are clueless, and that they just have enough money to advertise it." -Peter Camejo -- "Skanky-Deutch-Ho-Bag!!" -Mike

[Ryan]

I really think Babkha needs to declare a state of war against Mr. Beckford for his illegal proliferation of Babkhan artifacts and materials. Not to mention the illegal use of Babkhan bandwidth.Prepare the Red Berets for deployment. Time to make our boys shine.

[david northworthy beckfor]

I am only doing what Hesam Jahandar did(yes, he is stealing bandwidth..from GSA/OAM space) war trophy liberated from Babkha by the Federated NORworthic Liberation Devision (FNORD)

[Ryan]

Yes, but they deserve it.We, however, are BABKHA! BABKHA AKHBAR! How DARE you steal our holy bandwidth! We shall launch a great jihad against you, heathen infidel!

[Scott Alexander]

Quote:Right now, though, Shireroth is in chaos, and we are vulnerable.Could you clarify that statement? We seem to be the most orderly and secure we've ever been. We've got a strong Kaiseress, more than enough active citizens, the feudal system and heir system are finally established well enough that there's only the occasional challenge, and all the Ministries seem to be running almost suspiciously smoothly. What chaos, exactly, should we be hoping to grow out of, and how are we vulnerable? Since everything is but an apparition, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst out in laughter. - Longchenpa

[Gman Russell]

Quote:and all the Ministries seem to be running almost suspiciously smoothly.*whistles innocently*

[Kaiseress Jadie]

The reason that Erik can kind of stop things from happening is because he owns the board....end of story.I talked to him today however....and as Ruling Kaiseress he is still letting my word override his. If I understood him correctly (erik correct me if I am wrong)He is legally Kaiser now...so technically his word is now law....however..I can override him if I so choose to.And Hesam I am not trying to ignore laws...I will plead ignorance..I didn't know there was such a law in place that others were willing to sweep under the carpet. Even as Kaiseress I obey the law that has been laid down by the Kaisers before me. However there are times when laws are outdated. So don't accuse me of sweeping things under the carpet. I am obeying the law...and I apologize if it seems I had done different.Thank you Scott...I really didn't know I was that strong of Kaiseress...thanks for the support Kaiseress Jadie IThe Elf-Cat Kaiseress of Shireroth

[Hesam Jahandar]

Not at all jadie, I would not expect you to know what happened a year ago or go through tons of posts in which past information exsists. But upon reviewing it does seem Shireroth does not have a legal system other than the Royal decree, which is ofcourse fine. But could I suggest that perhaps Your Republic Codify these decrees so that lurking decisions in the past all of a sudden dont jump up and bite people when they least suspect it so to speak. This way all laws will be upheld and these laws will be known by all. Babkha, (if you'll excuse my pride) has the premier legal system in micronations. I personally do not understand it all, but I do realize the importance of legal code in a nation. by simply collecting all past decrees, decisions and proclaimations Shireroth could gain a new degree of order. This would also ensure that the Rule of the Crown is not questioned. It would also be an excellent resource for future Kaisers and Kaiseresses to know what was decreed in the past and decide if those still apply. Common Law is the basis for any nation, and the precident set is what makes a nation work. It wouldnt have to be complex, and now courts would even be nessesary unless they were wanted. The entire idea would be a concise list of laws in Shireroth. (As for the quoting of my text, as I had predicted, and as for Northworthy.... You are just dying to get my attention for your sig aren't you? bah! its not worth my time ) War Trophy Liberated From Menelmacar god of warProud Owner of a Real Horrorshow High-Speed, Low-Drag Sig!

[Mattlore Devious]

Quote:Right now, though, Shireroth is in chaos, and we are vulnerable.That one puzzled me too...chaos, where? vulnerable, to whom?

[david northworthy beckfor]

Quote: and as for Northworthy.... You are just dying to get my attention for your sig aren't you? bah! its not worth my timeby merely mentioning it, you have given me atension, and thus worshiped me, and thus, as a thankyou for your humble and loyal prasie of me, I will give you the privilige of having me rule your soul in Valhalla war trophy liberated from Babkha by the Federated NORworthic Liberation Devision (FNORD)

[Kaiseress Jadie]

We are currently working on something that lists all the laws and decrees how due to a terrorist attack some of these laws were lost.....Here is a new thing to contemplate should we just make the new decrees...the ones we remember at least...or just pretend they aren't there??*ponders* Kaiseress Jadie IThe Elf-Cat Kaiseress of Shireroth

[Gman Russell]

*whistles at Jadie's new avatar*very pretty!!! I like!!

[Gryphon Avocatio]

Quote:I do realize the importance of legal code in a nation. by simply collecting all past decrees, decisions and proclaimations Shireroth could gain a new degree of order. I did that.Way to notice guys. But don't worry, I know you all hate me .As for us being weak...why is Erik Kaiser? I wouldn't think that if we were strong that we would need Erik to be in charge and I would become suspicious of his motives. But who can deny that we need erik right now? He's the only person who knows our laws and traditions well enough to keep this place from collapsing. -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - "Minsiter of Dance, Pants and Funny Walks" - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas "You're intense and driven. That can lead to a lot of good things. It can also lead to high blood pressure and a closing of the arteries." -Mr. Mathews -- "I think that people who drive Hummers are clueless, and that they just have enough money to advertise it." -Peter Camejo -- "Skanky-Deutch-Ho-Bag!!" -Mike

[Gman Russell]

I don't think it's that we need Erik now, it's more like Erik needed to be Kaiser again....Don't believe me? check his reaction in the Heir thread

[Hesam Jahandar]

Perhaps this is your problem, you rely on Erik as your source of records, I do know that you have a list of decrees somewhere, I read them about 6 months ago and I think I copied them to my archives, But I dont think you really need Erik to lead you, I think you need to get yourselves organized so you dont have to depend on him. Leadershi[ transitions are often difficult if the nation is not prepaired to change hands, so now you must take this time to prepair yourselves. If Erik becomes the reigning Sovereign again, perhaps he could tutor Jadie in preparation for the next time he leaves. I think a great first step would be this legal code I mentioned. War Trophy Liberated From Menelmacar god of warProud Owner of a Real Horrorshow High-Speed, Low-Drag Sig!

[Kaiseress Jadie]

Oh..I remember..I have the list on my computer..I should really read through that.... But Erik is Kaiser because I know he needed it ..and I would really appreciate the help. I could handle the load on my own...but yeah..it is still nice to have the help...and I get another title... That isn't the reason. If anyone wants to know the real reason...IM me...and then I will bother to tell you if you care enough. Kaiseress Jadie IThe Elf-Cat Kaiseress of Shireroth

[Ryan]

All the chaos in Shireroth is in Erik's mind...

[Phoenix the Risen]

(Since this thread was spawned from the HWMNBN thread, which is now closed, I guess this would be the best place to put this Quote: On a person note, as a Duke, I will ban any person supporting/helping him, aswell as him, himself if these violations are allowed to continue, from the Duchy of Brookshire. (all posts by them will be deleted.)Now, may I ask, why it is that when Gryphon makes a totally unbiased blanket statement that all (non-admin... @#$% ezboard) entry to his Duchy is forbidden, the Kaiseress jumps out and goes right against it, even going so far as to condemn Kildare to new immigrants. And then nobody even mentioned Erik's (may I say biased) security measure in Brookshire.Okay... as for these arguments in this thread, I am hoping to see Shireroth sometime in the near future with a clearly defined legal system for Legislative, Executive, and (godforbid) Judicial matters. It would not have to restrict the kaisership much (if any) more than it already does - but just define things as they are and have been working, and should work if the cases come up.Right now, Shireroth is less a nation than a community, and not that I mind the community aspect, but in order for us to succeed as a nation, we actually have to have concrete ideas set down. You have no idea how troublesome it is for me to try to explain shireroth to prospective citizens: "Oh, yeah, it's a country, and we simulate government, but the government doesn't actually exist unless the kaiser wants it to, and even though you can do everything legal, if the kaiser doesn't like you, he can shoot you etc. and we have a legislature, who writes laws, but nobody pays attention to the laws anyways, since the kaiser has final say, and then there are ministries, who do stuff like take care of forums, and manage international relations (or lack thereof), and then when we get bored, we start party threads and random people come in and say they're doing stuff, and cut off random other peoples' wings, and it's just a forum, but we say that we're a country. Any questions?"I really would like to be able to say some things for sure rather than just "the Kaiser tells you what to do" which is all I can really say for sure. Because that's really boring for people who can go to any other forum and do exactly the same shit we do here (aka Off-Topic random crap) with people they may actually know.Umm... yeah, I'm ranting, but basically, I agree with Babkhan guy. Let's get ready to RoX0Rz!!!

[Stone Jackabar]

so to sum up, you dislike what may very well be the things that draw people to shireroth in the first place? And you also seem to dislike that this IS a dictatorship.also i seem to remember this debate a while ago."no one has rights in shireroth" makes perfect sense to me. As for people disobeying the laws, when do people follow all the laws in the real world too? YAY!!! we're doooomed!!!!!!

[Stone Jackabar]

those not skilled in politics leave it to those that actually care about that kinda of task. YAY!!! we're doooomed!!!!!!

[Kaiseress Jadie]

I didn't prevent people from enterring Kildare I just sait it was a little rough at the moment.......so I recommended otherwise. People can choose to live wherever they choose. But why am I sitting here trying to justify my actions to this post?*walks off*You are treading on thin ice....watch it.....*eyes glare red* Kaiseress Jadie IThe Elf-Cat Kaiseress of Shireroth

[Scott Alexander]

Quote:The Kaiserial wedding is contradicting the Feudal Holdings Act, in which it is stated that a Noble cannot rule over more than one subdivision, and in this case, because Jadie wanted to let erik be kaiser again, the rule was tossed aside and not even mentioned, and nobody cares that goldshire and brookshire now have the same rulers.I take ruler to mean "ruling noble". Jadie is ruling noble of Goldshire. Erik is ruling noble of Brookshire. Each is nonruling powerless semi-official noble of the other, but neither "rules" more than one subdivision in the strict sense.

[Phoenix the Risen]

I don't dislike the things that draw people to shireroth, but I dislike the fact that people are not drawn to a micronation for its politics at all... (edit) and because their ties are not to the country but the people in it, they will do anything to please the people they know (example: kaiserial wedding, sudden drop of the unbanning topic) whether or not it agrees with the country or its wellbeing. For one thing, the Kaiserial wedding is contradicting the Feudal Holdings Act, in which it is stated that a Noble cannot rule over more than one subdivision, and in this case, because Jadie wanted to let erik be kaiser again, the rule was tossed aside and not even mentioned, and nobody cares that goldshire and brookshire now have the same rulers. Let's get ready to RoX0Rz!!!Edited by: Gryphon the Pure at: 10/16/03 12:15 pm

[Kaiser Erik]

The reason that Erik can kind of stop things from happening is because he owns the board....end of story.

And you also should know, as I've proven before, I don't work like that. I have the power to do things, as EzOp..But you know I wouldn't, I haven't the Authority to. It's not in my nature to abuse power like that. No honor in it. Kaiser Erik of Shireroth.Duke of BrookshireNot dead yet...

[Hesam Jahandar]

Shireroth has its laws, but they are not inforced, or if they are enforced, The Kaiser/ess may over rule these laws at anytime. Well thats fine, veto is often the right of the executive, but its important that these laws are: 1: Catalogued so everyone knows what is illegal. 2. Upheld so that laws have meaning. If Shireroth is going to be a nation, it must have structure to some degree. We can now see the problem that will arrise. Suppose Erik leaves again? With no basis to work from, the next leader will not know what to do. There is no basis to build on. Now I know Shireroth has been around for a while, but now it has more activity than I can ever remember, and the society must grow to meet this. War Trophy Liberated From Menelmacar god of warProud Owner of a Real Horrorshow High-Speed, Low-Drag Sig!