A new idea in micronationalism

TonerMan · Post by **TonerMan** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:55 pm

Reminds me of Shireroth.... hehe.... kinda... Wondering Nomad

HICKTOP SAILOR · Post by **HICKTOP SAILOR** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:58 pm

OOC: I think that this is a great idea and would be more than willing to become a citizen. However, it is going to take a decent number of people for it to work, so I guess we'll have to wait and see. Nice work, Stjepan. And she laid gifts of fire and ice before Him and said, 'You are the HICKTOP and you shall be the Light of Micras.' HICKTOP blessed her and ground a handful of gravel into her flowing locks. To her He said, 'Speak not so gloriously of me, Alexja. Even I have my gods.' -The Book of HICKTOP

For Her Light · Post by **For Her Light** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:59 pm

It's got a little bit of Shireroth...but its basically taking some of that to a much larger degree, fully integrating it into a competitive domestic political front

TonerMan · Post by **TonerMan** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:21 pm

I see... Wondering Nomad

For Her Light · Post by **For Her Light** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:29 pm

To be honest, I don't think I've really ever seen a micronation which has really attempted to do something like this. Its not like Shireroth in that people hold several territories (and titles) for show or for voting rights. This isn't democratic in the normal sense, it's about building and maintaining a strong power base. Increasing your lands increases your influence and thus your importance in a substantive way. In a sense, you have voting rights, by using that power base to potentially save or bring down a sultan, and successfully playing that game will also be the fastest way to the administrative head of the empire.The problem is, it will need at least...probably 10 active people or more to work effectively.

For Her Light · Post by **For Her Light** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:50 pm

As many people are aware, I have a general disdain for most micronations and micronationalism. This, however, has absolutely nothing to do with such a rant as I've been having some interesting ideas about a new kind of micronation, one which would not be focused on inane beaucratic bullshit or childish hacking/wanking contests. It would be designed to be externally expansionist (yet sensibly so) like Shireroth, and internally dynamic.The idea is the result of my recent intensified interest in Ottoman history in the period of Mehmed the Conqueror. Thus, the idea is based mildly along those lines, a feudal system with an absolute ruler, but one not always entirely free of internal disfunction.Thus, the new idea is "The Osmani Empire".This may have some superfiicial similarities to Babkha, but essentially, the system is quite unique. Essentially, the system attempts to take the idiotic power struggles in other micronations, and give them almost a pseudo-constitutional framework for operation; to take power struggles away from the idiotic admin wankwars and integrate it into the actual political structure? Make any sense yet? Didn't think so...Whoo...this will take some 'splainin'...So I'll attack this by explaining the government structure.*An Outward Looking Empire*The head of state is the Sultan. He is essentially the absolute autocrat of the state. His Viziers, particularly the Grand Vizier, can influence his decisions and put forth their own ideas but essentially, the Sultan is the big man. The Viziers serve essentially as Ministers in other governments, and essentially, they are the outward face of the empire. The Sultan and Viziers would have to look outward and hopefully look to acquire other lands (usually in the shape of nations joining) which would add more provinces and potentially balance (or unbalance depending on your vantage) the political structure. There are also two governors for their respective provinces, Rumelia and Anatolia These are all closely tied into the inner structure.*The Domestic Political Order*Power in the empire is held by a large landowning class and each of these individuals owe their territories to the Sultan, who has the power to grant and reduce the holdings of these nobles. The viziers and governors are all drawn from this class, but as some nobles rise in prestige, others may fall and the Sultan will have thus enemies and allies amongst them. It is this inner conflict which makes the domestic scene dynamic.This empire will have no democracy, but it will have insurgencies, rebellions, and interregnums. In fact, it will depend on them. Pro and Anti Sultan camps will compete by trying to win over people to their side, making promises of new lands and influence. There is thus, room for rapid expansion, and potential ruin, if you are caught on the wrong side of rebellion. Here's the breakdown of the system as best and as simply as I can describe it...There are a total of 71 territories, roughly divided between the two provinces. Not included in these are the royal cities (Istanbul, Edirne, Bursa) which serve as the residence of the Sultan, the governor of Rumelia, and the governor of Anatolia respectively. These also play a role in this though. Nobles/landowners will generally possess a varying number of territories depending on how favored they have been. Usually three, maybe more maybe less depending on any number of things.If a Sultan acquires too many enemies, the nobles in the provinces* may conspire to win over others to their side with promises of new territories (generally at the expense of the opposition nobles) and they can declare themselves in open opposition to the Sultan.*note that nobles can hold lands in both provincesWhen this declaration has been made, the next move is generally the governor's to make. He has to judge how much support the Sultan has in the other province and the support of the other governor. If the governor opposes the uprising, the nobles-in-opposition must have more than half of the occupied territories to essentially drive the Sultan and his agent from that province. If the governor supports them, they only need a plurality (nobles can declare themselves for, against, or neutral).If the Sultan loses control of both provinces, he will be overthrown (with respect to the losers, the fallen sultan should be given a little plot of land). The next Sultan will essentially be determined by which governor overthrew the sultan or, in the case both opposed the Sultan, which one holds the most support among the nobles. The new Sultan would then begin the appropriate enfranchising and disenfranchising of nobles to award those who supported him, and important nobles would likely get new lands and top government posts.However, if the Sultan manages to retain the support of one province (not governor) he will crush the rebellion and do his own fleecing.*The Conquering Sultan*The empire can exist within itself, and it can look outward as well. I haven't quite worked out what the impact of foreign states would be, but acquired territories will have a role. They can essentially become new provinces and can create a new aristocracy to balance the political scales. They can also seek independence if so desired.*********As such, the system will be quite complex and will require a lot of interaction, but more importantly, will require certain ground rules. Failure to observe the ground rules would have penalties. These rules would be above all, against (real world) illegal methods of obtaining power (hacking and such) which would probably lead to immediate expulsion, and a some rules governing just how far a sultan can go with the distribution of territories.While this system may make it look like it would be impossible to get anything substantive done, thats not necessarily true. The Sultan is still an autocrat (again, to an extent covered by a set of rules), and while he will absolutely have to pay attention to the reaction to his decrees, can essentially embark on any program he wants with the consultation of his Viziers (who may not always have the Sultan's own interests at heart)Also, there won't necessarily be a hell of a lot for the Sultan to do outside of foreign affairs, so it really serves to keep the political situation fluid.So basically, what you have is something less inane then a bunch of countries shouting outloud their penis envy, and more a simulated political balancing act requiring actual skill to remain in power.okey...I probably didn't explain all of THAT amazingly well, but that's basically....it

Harvey the Blue · Post by **Harvey the Blue** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:06 pm

It seems more like an out-of-control game of diplomacy then a micronation. People changing sides, making allies and backstabbing the less useful ones... I can see tempers flaring a lot in that kind of simulation.I wonder of the constant stuggle would tear it apart. Conflict is good, but too much conflict can lead to wearyness. If I miss a few days, will I come back to find my lands ravaged and destroyed? Attacking when I am gone seems like a good tactical move, so probably.It might be able to work, but as is I really do not think it has much of a chance. Harvey SteffkeJadie's Lesser HalfSaves the worldProud bearer of the Shirerothian Silver Sword Award and Imperial Star

Ari Rahikkala · Post by **Ari Rahikkala** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:24 pm

Heh, I was about to say almost the same thing as Harvey... I don't see it as a micronation either, more like a RPG of a national government. You know, not having ground rules (and consequently not having any enforcement for the ground rules) is what sets micronations apart from RPGs. The rules of a RPG are external, while the rules of micronations are internal. What this means is that the enforcement of RPG rules is done out-of-character (e.x., a DM can just say "You can't do that" and rewind the simulation to before the moment of doing something illegal) while the enforcement of micronational rules - laws - is done in-character (e.x. in a micronational court). I don't have much to say on the idea itself... just that it should not be called a micronation IMHO. It's an RPG. In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to a Finn.

david northworthy beckfor · Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:20 am

I have been wanting to be in a nation like this for years.at last! it exists! Simark's BlogspotDavid I Eric Vivian Northorthy Beckford KGC OHDafitt Erick Wiffjan Nurtbefoon BergsdrumfortChunchos CuriataoKing of the Royal Court of Middarthian Derby,King of Northworthy, Earl of Wessex, Puritania; Governer of Saksenlant, cranda;;High Priest of Oten, of the Nor-Krantism Pagen Faith.Speaker of the Tynwald, Puritania.MCS & Delvenusian cartographerSlobovian GrossadmiralSLOBOWIEN ÃœBER ALLES!!! SLOBOWIEN ÃœBER ALLES IN DER WELT!!!

For Her Light · Post by **For Her Light** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:35 am

The ground rules would be used to moderate. It wouldn't necessarily be about constant backstabbing as it would be about creating alliances and a system of patronage. Whether it would work in practice or not, I can't tell, as I really don't have any serious intention of creating it myself. It basically places the greatest emphasis on the Sultan's ability to maintain that patronage, which is less out of control then you might think considering the vast number of territories and the relatively small holdings of individuals compared to the whole.Tempers probably would flare, that's the biggest flaw. It would require members to be mature but would also require a Sultan to take that into consideration and try to be more moderate in his approaches. Otherwise though, yes, I doubt most micronationalists would have the maturity to deal with it, which is a damn shame. A contractual agreement spelling out the nature of the game would have to be agreed to beforehand so that people are aware that it is "only a game", the ignorance of which has plagued micronations regardless.But I do disagree about the distinction between an rpg and a micronation. All micronations are rpg's as they are all trying to create something for the players which they otherwise could not experience. Micronations also have ground rules, they just give them different names, like Constitutions. Violations of the ground rules would be essentially handled as if they were a constitutional crime in a micronation, by either trial if desired, or more direct means utilizing the power of an absolutist state. The ground rules (which is not to be used as a technical term) can also be changed, as the reactions would be entirely internal. At any rate, whether you choose to call it an rpg or not, is irrelevant, as it would have to exist within some larger framework, otherwise it would be confined to existing within itself, which would become boring and two dimensional.

For Her Light · Post by **For Her Light** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:48 am

And Harvey, a few notes on some points you brought up.On their own, nobles can only move against the Sultan, not against each other. If you left, for a few days, the only person who could theoretically take away any of your lands would be the Sultan. The idea is that the nobility would react extremely negatively to such an affront of band together against the Sultan. As a result, a new Sultan would be installed and the lands of the disenfranchised would be restored if not expanded.That's essentially how it would function internally, the rules do not have to be followed by the Sultan or the nobles, but going outside justified actions would react in internal reaction which would be the effective punishment. This punishment goes both ways, too. The power of the nobles is owed to the Sultan, but the Sultan derives his power from the nobility. They are in conflict, but at the same time, they need each other. If one party violates that relationship, the other would have to act in accordance to reestablish the norm.

Emir of Raspur · Post by **Emir of Raspur** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:40 pm

A new Osmani dynasty? Well I'm game for that. Indeed I'm quite taken with the superficial similarities, and why go for Sultan. Shah has more gravitas ;) Edited by: Emir of Raspur at: 7/22/03 2:50 pm

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:04 pm

GO AHEAD! DUSCHIDISE MY ETHNICITY SOME MORE!*wanders off grumbling*

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:52 pm

Tsk tsk. Such foul language. *shoves a bar of soap down Stjepan's yap*Lebanon was under the tyrannical heel of Istanbul for well over two centuries. And my family lived in then-Turkish lands since before they were independent. I.E. The Mounajjem family has been traced back to Shah Dareious of Iran circa 323 BC.So, if you wanna get technical, I am part Turkish.At least it's more feasible than EvC being locked up in a Turkish prison. :p

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:18 pm

Eh, there are a lot of Turkish families up near Tripoli. Cause it's only like a two hour drive to Latakia. Anyhoo, yeah, sorry, I gotta wave my little Pan-Arab flag around. AL-AQSA INTIFADA! ;)After four years of putting up with people yelling at me about swearing, I need to give a little back. So sit there and take it like a man. :pANY FRELLING WAY... This is an interesting idea. I like the Pahlavis better than the Osmanis personally. Though if you wanted evil I would've thought you'd have gone with the Qajars. But if you do manage to get something set up, i'm interested.

For Her Light · Post by **For Her Light** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:35 pm

lol. sorry Ardashir but I'm to a wholly different Osman rather than your own much distinguished and venerable line in Babkha. ;) I'm also afraid that the superficial similarities would be just that, superficial. Civil society is sooo passe. ;)@Warvoid: what the fuck are you talking about? You're not even a Turk so it isn't even your ethnicity, let alone am I "Duschidizing" anything... Edited by: For Her Light at: 7/22/03 4:48 pm

For Her Light · Post by **For Her Light** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:00 pm

Actually. considering the the Turkish pattern of migration was almost entirely westward, into Europe, its actually NOT much more likely that you are part Turkish then...say...EvC being locked in a Turkish prison.But thats ok, I already know you only wanted to run and around singing and dancing again about how you're part Arab again. ;)Oh, and please don't bitch about my language. You of all people I expected to not be such a pansy over silly things like swearing :P ...And I can't believe that I'm here to stay......'Cause I never worked it out this way......And I love you more than I can say......But I hate you every other wayEdited by: For Her Light at: 7/22/03 5:01 pm

For Her Light · Post by **For Her Light** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:56 pm

Not all that many really. Some Turkified descendents of settlers and/or jannissaries perhaps, but the Turknicity (funky, eh? ;) ) is actually somewhat questionable. Considering the proximity to the major city, it's more likely that they are descendents of the substantial jannissary garrisons, who were (as far as I can remember) never ethnic turks or perhaps ethnic Turkmen who are much closer to that region.. (Much of modern Turkey isn't exactly Turkish ethnically, particularly the south east). Either that, or they emigrated much later.But anywho, I never yelled at you for swearing, so go yell at Scott or Harvey instead. ;) If you insist, I can take it like a man, but I will also give it back like a man :)I do not regard the Osmani as evil. Rather, I chose a specific period of time in Ottoman history, before Suleiman the Magnificent, before the conquest of the Arabian territories; the reign of Sultan Mehmed II Fatih, who I have had a considerable interest in for quite awhile by now. ...And I can't believe that I'm here to stay......'Cause I never worked it out this way......And I love you more than I can say......But I hate you every other wayEdited by: For Her Light at: 7/22/03 6:19 pm

Paraxylsis · Post by **Paraxylsis** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:23 pm

Stjep, how much interest are you looking to muster before you make the board?

For Her Light · Post by **For Her Light** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:28 pm

Um...considering that I'm a lazy bastard and that this idea doesn't seem to have any real support at all... ...And I can't believe that I'm here to stay......'Cause I never worked it out this way......And I love you more than I can say......But I hate you every other way

Siberian Fox · Post by **Siberian Fox** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:25 am

As someone who has shared your general view of micronations for a long time Stjepan, your proposal appears to me to be an attempt to recreate micronationalism within a controled environment.Such projects CAN work, up to a point, although it is not really possible to tell if any particular format will be sucessful without first trying it. I am a great beliver in that quote from Field of Dreams "Build it and they will come", but one has to be totally 100% committed or it will never happen. I have often thought about setting up another micronation and do things "My Way" (I love that song ;-) ) but I have never started another since the PRNSE because I haven't really *belived* in it like I did then. I almost came back to MNs with Audentior (7) because I saw it an thought "hey this could really work", but alas when I came back from exam season it was gone.Anyhow, just my random ramblings to add to this thread for what they're worth. My advice to you is only start this off if you are really, really dedicated to it (as in even throwing some cash behind it). Regards,Adrian

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