Cruise Missile Issue

[AngelGuardian93]

I must disagree with Rakesh's use of Cruise missle. It's not exactly a 'fair' thing to do. If he can use SIXTY-FOUR cruise missles, I can at least use a nuke or two. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Osman Shahanshah]

Cruise missiles still don't equate with nukes, which are banned on account of if Extreme ever got to use them there would most probably not be a single creature left alive in all of Antica, and as specified before I am open to suggestions as to how many get through and what damage they cause.

[AngelGuardian93]

I will be watching closely. :P There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Osman Shahanshah]

Rakesh fired 64 supersonic cruise missiles at the Natopian and Shirerithian fleet the other day. It has been at least two days, and by any stretch of the imagination those supersonic cruise missiles are overdue.Exploiting, and perhaps exceeding, my new found powers as judge I am going to decree that it is high time the cruise missiles found their targets. Since the missiles were expressly targeted at the Shirerithian and Natopian fleet during their convergence off shore from Acre it will be the Natopian fleet that bears the brunt. I believe that 50-60% kill rate on the incoming weapons will be flattering to any navy defending against a sudden missile barrage (I'll pause a moment to allow Extreme to contradict me) ... anyway I shall liase with the SPEAR judge, Kaiser Lors, and the intended victim, Nate, as to the extent of any damage that is to be inflicted.

[extreme007]

i feel that cruise missiles need to be banned.. or unless, if you can specify the type of missile and keep to a minimum distance... soom cruise missiles have the range of 3000 kilometers... that's crazy! Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,Advance Science,Advance Extremism,(in Karnali, Republic of)

[Rakesh86]

Well a few comments on the cruise missile issue. First, our major naval engagement of the war (between Scott and Dugobert) was akin more to the battles fought in the first and second world wars rather than something we will see in the modern age. Granted, we haven't seen any major naval action since the conclusion of the Falklands War - but still. Cruise missiles, especially supersonic ones are the mainstay of all naval fleets in America, Europe and Asia. The Shirerithian-Natopian Grand Fleet's location was well known, which makes them a big target for missile attack. Naval doctrine would perhaps dictate the complete barrage of the Fleet while it was vulnerable rather than my paltry sixty-four missiles (need I mention how many missiles was fired during Desert Storm, Operation Enduring Freedom or Operation Iraqi Freedom). The Shirerithians and Natopians conducted themselves poorly in the naval arena and should bear the consequences. No, I do not think that cruise missiles should be banned. Warfare would dictate that we should allow all weapons outside the realm of WMDs. If I want to sit 1000 kilometers away from shore and fire land-attack cruise missiles, I should be able to do that. It is responsibility of the opposite side to field a fleet to make sure I cannot do that, and to remind the attacker he does not have infinite amount of such missiles.

[AngelGuardian93]

Rakesh, you are a good friend to me, but this is about story, not tactical warfare. What good does it do storywise to sit back and obliterate the enemy with the push of a button? It dehumanizes war, and makes a mockery of the art of storytelling! There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[chancellorN8]

I havent been paying much attention really. 50% fatality is fine with me... I've been considering sending my fleet home anyway.I propose that the following ships be sunk, I'm only saving my carrier since I'M on that carrier, and I dont want to die Can cruise missiles reach submerged subs? Ill de France II - destroyerThe Massive - destoyer (all that mutiny for nothing, lol)Vista de Nada - frigateIF cruise missles can reach subs:Andromeda - subIF NOT:Mehlville - frigateedit: listed a ship twice His Sovereign Majesty, Nathan I,King of Natopiahttp://natopia.cjb.netEdited by: chancellorN8  at: 8/20/05 23:06

[UEC]

So what stops me from making a fleet of Cruise Missle destroyers.. sitting way out of range.. and just launching waves of missles? They are more or less undefendable.. and long range... remotely operated.. etc.. they really take the fun out of all this.. E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[extreme007]

exactly.... and i speak from researching on the Phalanx defense system.. it basically eliminates these threats by shooting them down...now, if you have a super-battlecruiser like octavius's, it makes it that much harder to defeat, considering he has 4 of those Phalanx (where as most US ships have 1 or 2 perhaps).. and has like 32 cruise missiles and 16 SLAM cruise missiles! not to mention 12 big huge guns! Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,Advance Science,Advance Extremism,(in Karnali, Republic of)

[Kaiser Los III]

I am sorry about the long period of time it's taken to resolve the cruise missiles. I have been trying to talk to Rakesh about them, but whenever I IM him he's not there.I agree that cruise missiles are a bit dodgy, because they're just too easy to use. That being said, it'd be odd to ban them entirely since they are a real part of real warfare. I've asked people on my side for help with dealing with them and all they can tell me is that 60 is a surprisingly large number of cruise missiles.Therefore, I guess my actions are1) to engage all of my anti-air defenses against them, including the aegis systems on the destroyers and some other nifty stuff on the cruisers.2) to suggest Nate scramble the aircraft - not enough for extreme to notice, but just to make sure they're off his carrier if the cruise missiles hit it and can retreat to Raynor Isles.3) To send out my helicopters to try and spot Rakesh's fleet, because as soon as I do, I'm sending a volley of my cruise missiles his way, because I really don't know what else I can do to make things even.I leave it to Ardashir to decide how much damage the missiles do, hopefully after consulting with people like extreme. Edited by: Kaiser Los III at: 8/21/05 0:17

[Osman Shahanshah]

Well considering Nate is fine with getting stung we will assume that Natopian anti-missile defences are on a par with the Royal Navy in 1982 (hint: That's not a good thing, google HMS Sheffield for more info).Scott's anti-aircraft defences will achieve the bulk of kills on the cruise missiles. But note the word supersonic, these aren't lumbering tomahawks. Further, being cruise missiles they will be taking an evasive route set by several mission tailored guidance systems.Personally I doubt the Natopians would have time to scramble their fighters though some would be on routine air patrol anyway. Assuming they try, some will get airborne (how many planes currently on the carrier?). In any event a hit by a cruise missile is unlikely to sink something as big as a carrier.

[extreme007]

a hit by a cruise missile could sink a carrier, especially since 60+ are fired, and there are less than 30 targets.further, for nate's carrier, a routine air patrol is usally 2 airplanes, with 1 or 2 more on standby... that means, 3 or 4 are in the air the moment those cruise missiles are spotted.. a further 2 or 3 can be launched quickly... but that is offcourse assuming that the commander realises that the danger is VERY HIGH. further, those 2 airplanes on the air patrol, would have been flying for some time already... meaning that the plane would be on low fuel.....anyways, on with the cruise missile issue.... the cruise missile really takes out much of the advantages of any other force.... one could simply take up a unit of cruise missiles, and be able to almost single handedly win!perhaps, we ought to limit the number of cruise missiles that can be fired for the entire SIDE! and/or even the targets that can be fired upon... Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,Advance Science,Advance Extremism,(in Karnali, Republic of)

[Osman Shahanshah]

Quote: a hit by a cruise missile could sink a carrier, especially since 60+ are fired, and there are less than 30 targets.Of which Scott's battlegroup is able to destroy between 30-40. The rest are down to Natopia's less able anti-missile and point defense systems to cope with.Anyway Nate has volunteered to write off the following:Ill de France II - destroyerThe Massive - destoyer Vista de Nada - frigateMehlville - frigateand this we shall gladly do, but I'll be fair to him and say his carrier ought to be able to limp towards the Raynor Isles, even if its flight decks are blown out and useless. Shall we say seven or eight of Nate's scrambled carrier fighters survive, this is in line with other devestated aviation formations such as Ozarka's or Dugobert's Sea-Ashavans.Quote:anyways, on with the cruise missile issue.... the cruise missile really takes out much of the advantages of any other force.... one could simply take up a unit of cruise missiles, and be able to almost single handedly win!The essense of naval warfare is the competition to see who can fire off the most missiles and who can intercept them in sufficient numbers to survive the barrages.What we do need to rule against is there being an infinite supply of such weapons.

[extreme007]

Quote:The essense of naval warfare is the competition to see who can fire off the most missiles and who can intercept them in sufficient numbers to survive the barrages.how about giving the units either more missiles, or more defense systems.... but not both... that way, if one side selects a fleet with several missiles, then the other side could select a fleet with several defense systems....that way, it would come down on the people to support each other if they want to succesfully win the war.. Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,Advance Science,Advance Extremism,(in Karnali, Republic of)

[Kaiser Los III]

Why would any of Nate's planes be hurt if they had time to scramble? They should be well off the carrier when the explosions occurred and able to either land again once the missiles had hit or get to a friendly base in the Raynor Isles.

[extreme007]

1.. you can't send 10 planes into the air within minutes... i am talking of less than 5 five minutes.... or something of that sort..2. if the carrier is struck with even 1 missile, the planes cannot land back... most likely the carrier's deck is destroyed or damaged.... Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,Advance Science,Advance Extremism,(in Karnali, Republic of)

[Rakesh86]

What we agree that we will limit cruise missiles to your average run of the mill AShM-type, and keep long-range Tomahawks out of it? Perhaps to create things 'fun' , I could fire a single salvo (cut missile count by half).

[Kaiser Los III]

Hm, okay, extreme, I wasn't aware of the time issues.It looks like Nate is so annoyed by this he's considering quitting the war. And I don't like that. So, while admitting that this was an excellent strategy by Rakesh, I'm going to limit the damage to...Sinking the Shirerithian destroyer Lapano and minelayer Aliso ViejoSinking the Natopian frigates Mehlville and Vista de Nada...and banning long range Tomahawkesque cruise missiles for the rest of the war. We'll talk about whether we want them in future wars later.

[extreme007]

why not ban all sorts of cruise missiles?if you are banning tomahawk like cruise missiles, then the ones fired by rakesh are still valid.. cause their range is less than tomahawks.... Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,Advance Science,Advance Extremism,(in Karnali, Republic of)

[Osman Shahanshah]

If we ban cruise missiles we are heading down a slippery slope towards muskets and knights in armour.

[extreme007]

true... but then we need to do something.... either:1. Limit the total number of missiles that can be fired for the entire side, no matter which player fires them.2. Limit the range of the missile to a small distance of 200? kilometers, and a post saying that you have reached within striking zone, before posting that you fired your cruise missiles.3. Post a complete detailed post about your cruise missile, like its range, ceiling, speed, guidance system, etc... the judges would then say if that missile is allowed or not. Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,Advance Science,Advance Extremism,(in Karnali, Republic of)

[Osman Shahanshah]

I prefer number one, this gets the cruise missiles used up early in the war as the opening salvo and counter salvo before the beligerant parties come to grips.

[chancellorN8]

I'd say number 1 is best as its the least technical...So... I've only lost 2 frigates? Honestly, I was not whining about getting attacked... that is what happens in war. It honestly is due to other reasons I'm not paying attention (started first ever job, a little stressed). But I won't lie, the level of technicality of this IS dissuading me from taking a more active role... but please dont "go easy" on me just because I came off whiney... His Sovereign Majesty, Nathan I,King of Natopiahttp://natopia.cjb.net

[extreme007]

*strikes out plans for bombing nate's ships* Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,Advance Science,Advance Extremism,(in Karnali, Republic of)