Discussion thread for New Forums Proposition A

[Hypatia Agnesi]

Fax has proposed this in the Landsraad, and I have brought it here for discussion, so that all citizens may have their say. I have requested that nobles not vote until Sunday or Monday, so please, make good use of the next few days for discussion. I greatly hope that we can reach a concensus by that time.Quote:New Forums Proposition A (Minfo)Naudia'Diva recognizes that the forums we have with ezBoard have been our home for quite some time, but asserts that Shireroth as a whole would be better served with a different form of forum: phpBB.With the server switch that is pending, we will be able to host our own fora with little to no difficulty. We have several intelligent and capable members of our society who know php very well, and I would ask that the Praetor grant admission to those who are not already allowed into the Landsraad.Naudia'Diva also recognizes that members of this congregation have also had "problems" in the past with phpBoards. To this, I reply that the Wiki is based in php and has no problems. In fact, it is even expandable without damaging any existing part of the object itself.The fora should be much the same.That being the case, Naudia'Diva proposes that the Imperial Republic of Shireroth move to phpBB once our grasp on the new site is firm.This would also allow for several different kinds of expansion on our own parts. For one, this would allow us to easily segue into a post-based economy. For another, this would allow us greater control over our fora and security. For a third, our current fora's look, feel, and interface can be ported to phpBB with little effort. For a fourth, interlinking between Wiki and Fora would be easily done, more easily than it is currently.The main way to combat stagnation is to make change easy. And this makes changes to our fora and our feudal society easier--much easier--than they are currently. *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[osmose1000]

Some of my main points:1.It is possible to convert from EZBoard to phpBB. According to the readme, it also will move over all users.2.phpBB can make RELIABLE forum backups.3.phpBB is highly customizable, and can allow for several mods, including a money mod in case we need a way to track money in an economy.4.Customization of the layout and style is easy to do, cleaner, and more complete than that of EZBoard.5.Moving to our own board system will remove the burden of having to pay $60 a year for a messy, outdated system. And as this will go in conjunction with our pro for life plan, we will be saving a grand total of around $180-$200 a year. Within a year and a half we will have already payed off the supposed money lost.6.User groups can organize the fiefdoms, as well as control access to forums.7.The benefit of being able to go to multiple boards through EZBoard isn't an issue, as:A.All of the new citizens we got during the ad campeign were perfectly fine with filling out an immigration form(as well as registering for EZBoard, for the ones who actually stayed).B.All of our main citizens already have an EZAccount, so the benefit of multiple forums is not lost to them. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...Edited by: osmose1000  at: 10/27/05 16:25

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

We have many php coders (myself included) that have tinkered with phpbb before. I can personally guarantee anti-spam-cannon measures that will neutralize the threat from the Dinarchy's "GoldenEye", as well as certain other programs that begin with a "C". However, I urge that we wait until version 3.0 is released. 3.0 will contain the necessary coding to allow for subforums, added security, and increased niftiness. The release of this update is expected within the next month or so, seeing that the FAQ is already on the site. However, if we want to move to the phpbb at the current release, we can update (in theory) without a problem. ________________It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word.-Andrew Jackson

[Hypatia Agnesi]

I am in favor of the move over, since it is obvious that we have a few citizens who are fully capable of setting up and maintaining our boards and webspace. I like the sound of a new release of php that would allow us to do more, so perhaps it would be a good idea to wait another month or so until that release is out and you (that is, you who will set up and maintain our boards) can familiarize yourselves with it, before making the actual move. *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

I've been checking in with the developers, and they tell me that they're currently working on a program that will automatically migrate past versions (.01-2.0.17) to the new forum setup. Normally, the change in primary digit in a version sequence denotes the inability to migrate files between the two systems. However, this will soon be fixed. I can say with 99% certainty that if we switch now, we'll be able to move to the new version as soon as it's available. ________________It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word.-Andrew Jackson

[osmose1000]

And besides, we need to be version 2 to convert the EZBoard over. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

And thus, if we're going to migrate, there's no better time like the present.I urge all Shirerithians to consider the vast improvements we can make using phpbb, such as (get this) COMPLETE FORUM BACKUPS ! ________________It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word.-Andrew Jackson

[osmose1000]

No more EZFucked. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Will this also for full conversion of threads aswell?

[Quack McDuck]

Convert some archives to show people how it works. I have had quite a bit of experience with this if you need a hand.Version 3 has been in the works for many many months so it might not be that close... but even once it is released it would still be months before a convertor was released. While you may have to make a new skin for v3, the database info should be the same.

[Bill3000]

I'm still very dubious about this. Not only because of tradition, but because it really isn't as necessary as you would think it to be. Despite what you may think, ezBoard has been VERY stable over the past six years, even though there was just one incident that said otherwise. Just one. That can hardly be said about other forums, much less independent forums.It's a matter of tradition in this case, as well as history. Part of the problem I have is that when the nations die, the forums on the non-ezboard servers tend to be lost. I want a guarentee that the forum would be preserved if for some reason, Shireroth dies, before I can even consider voting for this.This is not including the format of the forums. I like the format of ezBoard, and most other phpBB forums are incredibly different and clumsy compared to ezBoard. I have been using this service for almost six years now, and feel at home here. I do not find the administration panel clumsy in the numerous amount of times I have used it, either. Not including the issue of post count, which would have to be artifically carried over to the new forums. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[osmose1000]

Quote:I'm still very dubious about this. Not only because of tradition, but because it really isn't as necessary as you would think it to be. Despite what you may think, ezBoard has been VERY stable over the past six years, even though there was just one incident that said otherwise. Just one. That can hardly be said about other forums, much less independent forums.Bacvk when I was around 13, my friend started a site called Xboxcorp, as an Xbox fansite. He let me be an admin on his php boards for the two years the site was active before it fell apart. During those two years nothing ever happened to the boards, be it random crashing or succumbing to being hacked. I've also known several other php boards that I've visited over the years that have never had any of the problems you people worry about. And the fact is, even if we did, we'd have backups stored in several places that we could pull up to fix any problem that occured.(The boards the site links to are for a different site, since after we left it my friend let someone test a hacking tool on it - the reason it worked was because he hadn't updated the board in 6 months and an exploit that had already been cured in newer versions was left open. If we do get a php Board, we need to make sure to stay up to date.)Quote:It's a matter of tradition in this case, as well as history. Part of the problem I have is that when the nations die, the forums on the non-ezboard servers tend to be lost. I want a guarentee that the forum would be preserved if for some reason, Shireroth dies, before I can even consider voting for this.Once again, the backups can be used to restore them on a different server. We could have them sent to you for safekeeping if you wanted, Bill. Plus, even if Shireroth died, hell if I'm not going to continue using a host I payed $67 for, and I'm sure the same goes for Fax and others. We won't let Brinkster just up and delete our history.Quote:This is not including the format of the forums. I like the format of ezBoard, and most other phpBB forums are incredibly different and clumsy compared to ezBoard. I have been using this service for almost six years now, and feel at home here. I do not find the administration panel clumsy in the numerous amount of times I have used it, either. Not including the issue of post count, which would have to be artifically carried over to the new forums. Matter of opinion, for one, and two, we intend to make the new board look as close as we can get to this one, which is quite close. The only differences I can see is a list of links to the person's profile and such at the bottom, the date of the post at the top of each post, and perhaps the make a post page and such. Those are reasonable differences, especially if we style them in the same way that the forums are styled now. Frankly, they add more options and flexibility anyway, and if moving your mouse to a different point on the screen is going to be one of your main points to not move, then you seriously need to realize that using a different forum isn't going to call up Satan upon us. Sometimes clinging to the past prevents you from progressing to the future. Culture is a good thing to remember, but a forum system is hardly as important.I know that I've seen cleaner admin panels with more options. And the users are moved over along with the posts during the conversion. You've also told me that you'll be annoyed that your posts won't be attributed to your main EZBoard profile. Well, sorry Bill, but EZBoard isn't the only forum system in the world. Deal with it. Stop worrying about post count like if it goes down than you lose respect. No one cares. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Fax Celestis]

Quote:Despite what you may think, ezBoard has been VERY stable over the past six years, even though there was just one incident that said otherwise. Just one. That can hardly be said about other forums, much less independent forums.If there's been only one incident in six years, would you care to explain to me why there's not one, but four (arguably six) large gaping holes in Shireroth's history where posts are no longer existant? Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Shyriath]

*Is slowly being persuaded toward the pro-php side* Slowly, mind you. I find myself leery of the idea in a sentimental sense... but I think all my practical concerns have already been addressed.But then, I'm not a Baron anymore, so I suppose that doesn't matter so much.

[UEC]

On a random technically note.. Can perl/CGI be intermingled with PHP? (The bank is in perl/cgi... ) E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Fax Celestis]

Ask the Moose or the Netopali. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Ari Rahikkala]

I can already feel in my heart the icy chill of being forgotten .Erik, my tech support telepathy skills might have gotten a bit rusty in the army, but if I'm reading your thoughts correctly, the answer is no. Even if you used mod_perl (thus getting the Perl and PHP stuff into the same process space), I don't want to imagine the hacking of Apache internals that that would require.However, all that does not matter, of course, since what you really want to do is to talk with the database, not talk with the bank program. PHP has a perfectly fine DBM interface, it just needs to support at least one of the back-ends that also the perl on the server does... and I'm pretty sure that the back-end that everyone uses these days is gdbm, so there are no problems with that part. The league of sadistic telepaths: "There's someone in your head and it's not you"

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Fax: the reason there are several gaping holes in our history is because a whole bunch of threads were moved to a forum that could not contain them (the "Void") and deleted.In my time in micronations, I have personally seen four PHP crashes - two in the Dinarchy of Antica and two in two different SanderNations (I couldn't tell you which two; they all blend together for me). One of those was during the last time that people were trying to push PHP boards (remember Subhadipsen?) and bragging about how reliable they were, and it shot down the project pretty quickly, which is one reason we're still here.PHPBoard allows backups? EZBoard either already does or it's being implemented, I can't remember which.My main qualm with this is that it would turn us into a technocracy. Those people who work PHPBoards would be the only possible admins. In the case of any rebellion, they would have complete control, and in the less unlikely case of them leaving, the rest of us would have no idea what to do. It would make us dependent upon a subset of the population.EZBoard, despite its horrible habit of having a problem once in five years, is easy to use, compatible with other forums and other micronations, and doesn't require a lot of work to make simple changes. Do you remember how long it took the micronational world's best programmers to figure out something equivalent to the Malarbor Bar on PHP when I got it working here in ten minutes with no programming knowledge beyond simple HTML? The Commonwealth had to beg Delphi for his code (which he eventually gave them).As Shireroth's unofficial Weapons Advisor, I know that micronations who have weapons against EZBoard have weapons against PHPBoard also. I believe, though I can't prove, that some of the PHPBoard weapons are worse - and certainly it's easier to bring down a single board than the biggest forum company in the world.Finally, let me remind everyone that we have paid for about eight more months of free gold (when you count the Community Chest). I suggest using that time to create a PHPBB and see if we like it, and seeing whether those eight months include any crashes or involve too much work. The Plan B would be an excellent way to do that. If they don't, THEN we can consider moving our entire nation over to a currently untested platform.

[AngelGuardian93]

I agree with Scott. EZboard is where we should stay. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Fax Celestis]

On another note, think of the return of functionality within posts, and the extension thereof.It'd mean that we could include tables and other html markup within our posts and signatures without having to pay for it.It'd mean that we could add auto-linking tools, like having {mwiki}Sword of Vengeance{/mwiki} link to the Sword of Vengeance article in the Microwiki, or having {wdict}Sunk Cost{/wdict} link to the Wiktionary article of the same name.It'd even give us the potential to add in things we haven't done yet, like a post-based economy or user-controlled forum appearance. You want the new fora to look like Shireroth does now? Fine. We've got a forum skin for that. Don't like the color of the links? Just change it yourself, and it won't affect any other users.We could even have "localized admin", meaning full control over only your little piece of Shireroth. Scott's had admin just so he could do Malarbor for quite some time now; who's to say we can't give him special powers as "Malarbor-access"?In essence, versatility and customization are at the core of this change, and the move would make both far easier on everyone. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[osmose1000]

You have the wrong impression. phpBB does not require a knowledge of php or anything to install, set up, or administrate. The only reason we benefit from having people who know PHP is to make things such as Malarbor. And I'm fairly certain that making a Malarbor-esque header for the front page is simple. I can think of how to go about it off the top of my head. As to why it took the best programmers so long to do it, I can only say that maybe they were trying to do it in a far more fancy way than I would?Any normal person can administrate the boards. The code junkies would just be adding things. All the mods we talk about are user-friendly, or they wouldn't be in the mods forum for phpBB.Yes, EZBoard has a problem once in five years, but that problem wiped out roughly three years worth of our history. Why did EZBoard lose this stuff and not return it? Because they kept their backups online where they could be targeted and destroyed. With phpBB, we can have our backups stored on our own computers, so that a hacker would have to attack as many people as are willing to have a file emailed to them once a week. Lastly, there's a concept in economics called Sunk cost. The money we've already paid for EZBoard is sunk cost and shouldn't even be considered. I'd agree with the small-scale test, except: What are we going to do over 8 months to test this thing? Post a lot? The test forum will stagnate and die, and when our 8 months are up we'll just have people clinging to the familiarity of their EZBoard. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...Edited by: osmose1000  at: 10/29/05 17:44

[Quack McDuck]

Quote: The Commonwealth had to beg Delphi for his code (which he eventually gave them).I love the way Scott always over-exagerrates when it comes to the GC Edited by: Quack McDuck at: 10/29/05 20:33

[Fax Celestis]

Quote:Fax: the reason there are several gaping holes in our history is because a whole bunch of threads were moved to a forum that could not contain them (the "Void&quot and deleted.That's not all of it. We're missing Kaiserial Decrees 6-12 for some reason, and the Void (and the Void II and the Void III) isn't the reason. We're also missing 46-56 (I'm approximating here; the point is, a bunch in the middle), as well as pretty much any proof of existence that I was ever Kaiser.There are large chunks of our history gone, and there's not a damn thing that we can do about it. But we would be able to do something about it if we had a phpBoard.ezBoard has also started doing odd things to us. Sometimes posts don't register as new; sometimes entire threads are eaten by glitchy fora with no way to repair. Again, we'd be able to fix it with a phpBoard.On a side note:Quote:Finally, let me remind everyone that we have paid for about eight more months of free gold (when you count the Community Chest).We only actually paid for half of the chest, remember, so we're not really losing much of anything. Besides, the functionality one gets with a Gold Board is still less than the functionality available with a phpBoard. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink RegigoraaukEdited by: Fax Celestis  at: 10/30/05 3:19

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I believe the reason a lot of decrees and stuff are missing is because they were on the Shireroth forum on the Tymaria board, which was 4-11ed by Locke. Which, by the way, EZBoard restored to within two weeks for no charge.I am not saying that it is impossible that PHPBoard is even better than EZBoard, although the fact that a vast majority of PHPBoards I've seen are really ugly and hard to use suggests that it takes a lot of work and talent to get them looking good (the Grand Commonwealth's is the only one I've seen that looks good good).I am saying that right now they are an unknown, and that therefore we should have some kind of test, possibly the one you recommend in proposal B, before we stake our entire future upon it. Shireroth wouldn't suddenly change its form of government into something we'd never tried before; why should we be any less cautious about our forums? We have eight months until gold runs out...let's take advantage of those to make sure we don't move unless we're absolutely certain it's the right choice.

[Fax Celestis]

...which is exactly the reason I proposed Plan B. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[osmose1000]

My problem with that is that we don't need 8 months. Your reasoning for the 8 months is that we've paid for it. But I already showed you in my last post that, since we can't get that money back, we should consider the equation without it. This matter probably won't even be voted on before we start the test.Speaking of which, why does the test have to be voted on? It's reasonably within the powers of the MiniInt and Minfo. We were too anxious to get a discussion started, I guess. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Bill3000]

I will agree with Plan B, but not Plan A. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Shyriath]

Then by all means, let's do Plan B at least. It's always a good idea to do a test run anyways.

[UEC]

Random idea... not sure if I could code it myself... but..Whatever we made a form to join SHireroth that was half the immigration form.. and half registering an account for the forum? Merge the two.. than have the immigration form posted for them under their login, and they be redirected to the immigration forum. E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Bill3000]

That would be interesting, although I would rather ditch the form altogether and do it through forum. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);