Thoughts on Wiki separation act

[Scott of Hyperborea]

First, let me say that in some ways I agree with this act in principle. By deciding to make the wiki intermicronational, we've implicitly said that we should let other countries have a say in it and not make it an officially Shirerithian project.Now, as far as I can tell, this act doesn't really change very much. Right now, Moose and Fax are in charge of the wiki and do what they want with it within the limits of fairness. After this, Moose and Fax will be in charge of the wiki and do what they want with it within the limits of fairness. Right now, it's on the Shireroth website and Shireroth's Minister of Information therefore has power of life or death over it. After this, it will still be on the Shireroth website and the Shireroth's Minister of Information will still have power of life and death over it. Therefore, this act seems to be symbolic. The neo-Babkhans are complaining, and we are saying "Your complaint is legitimate; we'll make some token symbolic changes to make you happy"But the fact is that their complaint isn't legitimate. They told us they would help us by adding their stuff to our wiki if we changed it from ShireWiki to MicroWiki, and we acceded to them and did so. Not only did they not add any information to our wiki (I can think of ten or so Shirerithians who have added more than the entire population of the Grand Commonwealth combined) but they are now demanding more concessions.They're not demanding the concessions because we're having a big issue with Shirerithian bias. So far as I know, everyone who actually uses the wiki is happy as a clam about what's going on. We've fixed the problem with bias in the Antica article, and things are going smoothly. It's only the people who aren't using the wiki who want us to change how it's working to favor them.If we change it, do you really think that all of the Babkhans will suddenly start posting long articles on Babkhan culture? No, they'll likely let the status quo continue, in which we have more stuff on the island of Benacia than on the entire Grand Commonwealth. And then when they think of something else they want, they'll bring out their CommonWiki again and we'll change it in their favor again.I absolutely support doing everything possible to make the wiki as intermicronationally friendly as possible, but I would limit that campaign to solving real problems, not helping people grind political axes, and to doing so only for the sake of people who actually use the service. Edited by: Scott of Hyperborea  at: 9/23/05 19:00

[Bill3000]

I agree with this sentiment. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[AngelGuardian93]

As do I. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Fax Celestis]

Considering what's before the Landsraad does, in essence, nothing, I don't see where a problem lies. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Scott of Hyperborea]

This may do nothing, but it does have powerful symbolism and we have every reason to oppose it if we don't like where that symbolism lies.First, this doesn't just devolve the wiki from Shireroth to an independent party in a generalized way. It devolves it from Shireroth to a specific group of two Shirerithians - a privatization, if you will. It's saying that despite it being Kaiser Los was the one who came up with the idea, set many of the settings, and made the front page, that despite it being Shyriath who made many of the original articles, that despite it being Gryphon who made many of the graphics, the Wiki now belongs solely to Moose and Fax, in the same way that Microsoft belongs to Bill Gates (or whoever the current major stockholder is). It is saying that the Shirerithians who contributed to the wiki, thinking that they were enriching their country, were in fact just doing stuff for Fax and Moose. Fax and Moose being the only two people thus far to support this project, while I doubt it is a sign of anything sinister, certainly doesn't look good.Second, the original purpose of the wiki was to give the Ministry of Research and Education something to do - manage the wiki and promote its use. This hasn't really panned out, mostly because we've ended up with a MiniInfo who is more interested than the MORE is, and that's fine - but I do think it could work out in the future. Putting it into private hands ensures that will never happen.Third, no one really wants this. The Babkhans say they want it, but they have no reason to care - they don't use the wiki. What they want is for Shireroth to lose control over it.Quite honestly, I am afraid you are playing into Babkhan hands just by proposing this. If you had stayed silent, the Babkhans could have accused Shireroth of being antiintermicronational, but no one much would have listened because they see that this is a perfectly efficient way to run a project. Now they can point to that there is this progressive Shirerithian element trying to make things fair and free, but the evil reactionaries have stopped them and thus it is vital that there be a CommonWiki to avoid our biases. This is why I STILL wish that you would ask me or our Minister of the Exterior for advice before proposing diplomatically charged issues, which I think I mentioned before the attempt to change it back to ShireWiki.And if you think the Babkhans will be any happier with something controlled by Moose and Fax, think again, batman. It will just be the same old "Obviously it's biased because there's no Babkhan at the top" problem, something that having it under Kaiserial control somewhat avoided. Wait and see if I'm wrong. Edited by: Scott of Hyperborea  at: 9/24/05 13:34

[osmose1000]

First, the wiki isn't the sole property of it's owners, it's just MAINTAINED by it's administrators. The whole CONCEPT of a Wiki is for a collaboration of minds to make a great information database.Second, it's just as you said - though Shyriath is a good guy, he really doesn't use his moderator status or anything. Third, Fax and I want it. The Great Satanists have expressed their want for this, and if they are still bitchy about it then we can stop even trying to be friendly with them and move it back into Shireroth.Fourth, I *DID* consult with you before changing it to Shirewiki after the stupid change to Microwiki 2. Fat load of good that did, Mr. Diplomat. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Quote:First, the wiki isn't the sole property of it's owners, it's just MAINTAINED by it's administrators. The whole CONCEPT of a Wiki is for a collaboration of minds to make a great information database.A wiki is contributed to by its users, yes, but that doesn't mean that it's not important who its owner is. As an example, we used to have huge fights about who controlled the Shireroth forums - Erik (the owner) or Shireroth as a nation. It was the same situation - the forums were only useful because people used them - but it was important because the person who owned the forums was the one who dictated how we used them.Quote:Second, it's just as you said - though Shyriath is a good guy, he really doesn't use his moderator status or anything.I know, but think bigger. Not only does this have the (currently unused) potential to bring activity to MORE, but it's already bringing activity to the Landsraad via this very discussion, to our foreign affairs, to all sorts of fun stuff. The Wiki isn't just there to be a wiki, it's there to provide another facet to Shirerithian government that can interact with facets like the Kaisership, the Landsraad, the Duchies, etc. Of course we will need to talk to our allies and foreign partners when doing this, but that's part of the fun.Quote:Third, Fax and I want it. The Great Satanists have expressed their want for this, and if they are still bitchy about it then we can stop even trying to be friendly with them and move it back into Shireroth.Have you asked the Anticans, the Natopians, the Atterans, any of the countries that actually USE the wiki? And of course we can't just move it back into Shireroth if we want - the Grand Commonwealth would let everyone know about that and we'd get in huge trouble.Quote:Fourth, I *DID* consult with you before changing it to Shirewiki after the stupid change to Microwiki 2. Fat load of good that did, Mr. Diplomat.Yes, I believe I advised against it and you did it anyway.

[osmose1000]

Nevermind... They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Let me just use this thread to say I like Fax's current idea much less than the last one. While the last one may have gone too far in appeasing foreigners, this one looks like it's basically just giving them the finger.What about something very basic like:The Wiki is under the control of the Ministry of Information, and therefore under the control of the usual Shirerithian hierarchy insofar as it can control the Ministry of Information.No extremely important policies will be put into place without consulting all of the foreign countries that regularly contribute to the Wiki, or as many of them as is practical. We will listen to any suggestions foreign countries give us.Any country that regularly contributes to the wiki that is reasonably trustworthy can have one of its contributing citizens made a moderator just as a sign of respect for that country. Anyone who is worthy of being a moderator will be, no matter what country they are from.

[Fax Celestis]

That's pretty much deformalizing everything I said.Oh, and:Quote:While the last one may have gone too far in appeasing foreigners, this one looks like it's basically just giving them the finger.Dead. On. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Scott of Hyperborea]

It isn't. I think requiring foreigners to be dual citizens of Shireroth to be on the council is going to make people REALLY angry and is completely unnecessary, especially if a Shirerithian heads the council.I don't think this is anything like what you said.