*holding lil picket sign*

[Erik Mortis]

*picket sign reads* "Where's my Money!"*reverse side reads* "I want my money..." *the word money is written over a scratched out word that appears to read "Mommy"**marches back and forth in front of the LAndsraad front gate in protest of the economy*I love being a politicly active commoner...*continues to march back and forth*How can I pay expenses to companies that don't exsist or who have provided me with NO services?Why do I pay taxes I don't even know about?Why don't I know the tax rates?WHAT AM I BEING TAXED FOR!??!Where is my money!?I WANT MY MONEY! Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of AlexandrettaEdited by: Erik Mortis Brookshire at: 3/10/04 12:17 am

[david northworthy beckfor]

you are paying for the simulated stuff*calls in a large transport helicopter**helicopter flys over, carrying a large vat of icecream underneatha voice comes in over the radio..."..target sighted....ready to drop payload on your mark..." "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Austi Scot]

Quote:How can I pay expenses to companies that don't exsist or who have provided me with NO services?Spending on your own will result in fewer directives from the Minister of Trade to spend. I am hopeful that companies will find ways to provide you with goods and/or services and it will be them that you pay. The economy needs people to spend for several reasons – which I can go into if need be.You are not requested to pay expenses to companies that don’t exist – in fact that specifically isn’t allowed. You can’t even pay companies that don’t have an account. You can pay individuals and ministries that don’t have an account if they are in Shireroth. This too was allowed for a reason.Quote:Why do I pay taxes I don't even know about?You should have known about the taxes since your were told about them from the very beginning. I quote from the second post in your account thread in MiniTrade“You can expect to pay a personal income tax of about 35% and to have living expenses of about 20% of your income. You can do as you please with the rest of your money.”Quote:Why don't I know the tax rates?Now that is a really good question – considering the above answer!Quote:WHAT AM I BEING TAXED FOR!??!For having made an income.Where is my money!?Since you’ve paid very few of your bills most of it is still in your account.Quote:I WANT MY MONEY!Pay your taxes and your bills.

[Gman Russell]

*Just inside the gates of the Landsraad, stood Gman Russell and a hand-picked squad of soldiers fully clad in riot gear at the ready should this demonstration turn ugly...* D -->D">

[Austi Scot]

~The Minister of Trade ran off when he saw the soliders. Hiding his face and yelling something that could almost be made out.~Da... ta... prote...

[Erik Mortis]

but you aren't taxing my income.. you're taxing money I've had for a while... And some of those taxes don't even apply to me... I'm neither a noble nor a Minister.. I'm just a bloody commoner who is TRYING to start a bussiness and getting taxed into the ground... I know the percentages you are taxing me with.. but where are they coming from exactly? Where are they written down into law? Where could I go for reference? See my point? How am I to know when tax day.. or pay day is? Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[Austi Scot]

I think at this point you don't know - but tax day doesn't matter because it's a percentage of your income from the last time your were taxed.Payday is also random at this point and you wouldn't know - but everyone who takes care of their economic responsibilities is paid when others are paid. There only two ways you miss out on a payday. The first is if you don't pay your bills (not if you don't pay your taxes) and the second is if the place you work for doesn't pay its bills.As with anything that is new it takes some getting use to and some time to find out what is going on. But you aren't being treated any differently than anyone else.The money you took with you after leaving the throne is considered an income. If you want to give some of it back to the Royal Treasury that protion won't be considered income. Any part of that money you keep is considered income.

[Erik Mortis]

This doesn't make any sort of sense... I'm not claiming i'm being treated any differently.. but you really need to say when things are due by... people need to be able to plan... Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[Shasta Rana Wanderlust]

He does have a point. So, if god is falliable, does that mean that this universe (or plane of existence, depending on your style of thought) could be nothing more than a metaphysical trashcan?Platypi point to this being true.

[Austi Scot]

So does that mean you're going to pay your bills and your taxes now?

[Erik Mortis]

Bills.. yes.. taxes.. no. About my taxes.. and JD's... we ere Kaiser or Kaiseress when we got the reallly big deposits in our accouts.. the 5k ones... as Kaiser(ess) we were not subject to income tax. Thus... the money we made during that time cannot be taxed even now... So... You can only tax us on what we earned after or before we were Kaiser(ess)..And if you say we didn't get the money till AFTER.... We got the money because we were KAiser(ess)... so the income was from that position... thus can't be taxed still... HA!... I win? Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[SSFSX17]

I am strongly inclined to agree with Erik.1) The money is coming from the goverment in the first place. It is absolutely pointless for the government to tax money it gives to people. The government may as well just plain give people less money and not even worry about trying to put a reduction on people's income.2) The government has absolutely no need to tax income to get money for its own treasury. The government can make whatever money it needs.3) Telling people to "pay their bills" is absolutely ludicrous and has zero logical basis in any way, because nobody owes anybody anything unless actual work is done. The spending requirement is a cruel and unusual institution that must be abolished. I should not have to pay 125 Erb of expenses to anybody if nobody has done 125 Erb-worth of work for me, for example.Seriously, Austi, I think you're off your rocker. I know that micronational economies work differently from physical not-completely-electronic ones, but one fact remains: MONEY IS ONLY A REPRESENTATION OF WORK. MONEY IS NOTHING ELSE. I don't know how you miss that.

[david northworthy beckfor]

it is a method used to get money moving, so that people start doing it themselvesif you dont get something like this to kickstart the economy, then people will never spend, and the economy will never start "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Erik Mortis]

Maybe we should than have some companies that make ....food.. and...power.. and stuff people would need... than people would pay THOSE companies based off what Austi said... Start with them being government owned.. than let people purchase them... and run them... sounds good? Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[david northworthy beckfor]

yes "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Erik Mortis]

I guess that too would be up to the Landsraad... grrr... I miss being in the Landsraad... Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[Philip Locke]

Eh, I'm with Erik.Tax income, but don't attempt to collect from money that's been in his account for ages. That is, until Landsraad passes a law allowing MiniTrade to confiscate portions of stagnant holdings.

[Erik Mortis]

I might have mentioned here.. but I put for a proposal for the landsraad... pub9.ezboard.com/fshirero...D=39.topic I also wrote up an act with those proposals worded out as a vote and put it before my Duke to put in the Landsraad. I simply establishes a base to work from.. as it stands I like what Austi is doing.. but it is apparent a few guidlines need to be put in place and the Kaiser and LAndsraad given at the least a sorta... check/balance to the MiniTrade.Although restricting the MiniTrade a bit.. it give the MiniTrade MUCH freedom. and the MiniTrade can all ways propose taxes to the Landsraad or Kaiser. Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[Austi Scot]

I am asking the people of Shireroth to allow me at least six months (though I would like a full year) to make this attempt at establishing a simulated economy. IÂ’m asking that few if any laws be made during that period to govern what and how I decide to establish the simulated economy. I have read what Erik wrote concerning the economy and have requested the Duke allow me to address him on the subject before he puts anything before the Landsraad.Austi

[Austi Scot]

Erik,No you don’t win simply be proclaiming you win. If winning was done that way I would have declared it long ago.You indeed had use of the money while you were Kaiser, but the money belonged to the Royal Treasury. You took the money when you left the throne – so give it back, it belongs to the Royal Treasury… or just pay the taxes on it.SSFSX,I haven’t missed what makes money valuable, I know that perfectly well. As Minister it is my job to establish the economy out of nothing. The task requires that people earn and that people spend – it also requires other matters but lets just talk about earning and spending right now.Earning requires that a person exchange their labor or capital for money. It is the goods and services produced by that labor and capital that is sold. With no basis for production (put aside the fact that your productivity idea has been rejected by me as Minister – productivity here is not based on how many documents you write) …. With no basis for production there are no goods or services produced and thus no sales can yet be made.Now don’t misunderstand – the production of documents can be sold, if someone wishes to purchases them. However, they are not the sole basis of production here in Shireroth. I have seen attempts to set up artificial production in the establishment of a simulated economy for micronations, with the hope that purchases will follow – only forced purchases happened (other than stock purchases). I have decided to set up artificial purchases instead, with the hope that production will follow. It seems that a few steps towards real production is starting to happen – thus purchases will follow naturally. In the meantime there needs to be spending.As people see that spending is taking place they will begin to compete for that spending and goods and services will be produced.Concerning the fact that money is coming from the government and thus there is no need to tax. While this is the current case due to the fact there was no currency – since there was no economy – it doesn’t mean that it should be that way entirely and forever. Thus a tax base must be established for the circulation of money along with spending.Frankly, SSFSX, I don’t think you’re off your rocker despite what you think of me. What I see you doing is the same thing I and others did for several years in our attempt to set up a simulated economy. We tried over and over to have a simulated economy operate on the same principles and with the same functions as a real economy. We applied our real world knowledge of economics to one micronation after another. The criticisms you’re firing towards me have all been leveled before towards economic ministers – at times by myself.I am asking the people of Shireroth to allow me at least six months (though I would like a full year) to make this attempt at establishing a simulated economy. I’m asking that few if any laws be made during that period to govern what and how I decide to establish the simulated economy. I know that you think you could do better – there has always been those who think they can do better than the person who has the job. It is apparent to many if not to all that I am taking an unconventional approach – an approach that is at least somewhat different from what has been tried before and from what would happen in real life. But unless I am removed from office – I will do the job.To Erik:Quote:Maybe we should than have some companies that make ....food.. and...power.. and stuff people would need... than people would pay THOSE companies based off what Austi said... Start with them being government owned.. than let people purchase them... and run them... sounds good? This method has been tried in micronations before. I have specifically chosen to not use this method this time.