Discussion: The New Feudalism

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Through extensive discussion with my Advisory Council, I have arrived upon what we all think is a better system for feudalism within Shireroth. I want all citizens to contribute to discussion on this proposal, and apologise for all concerned for having taken so long to get it up here.Quote:Fiefdoms and Nobles:a) Fiefdoms of Shireroth shall consist of Counties, Baronies, Duchies and Thanedoms, as described in the following sections.b) Nobles of Shireroth shall consist of the Minor Nobility, the Lesser Nobility, and the Greater Nobility, as described in the following sections.Minor Nobility:a) At entry level into Shireroth, citizens will be granted the rank of Commoner.b) Once a new citizen proves themselves as a citizen in Shireroth, they will be granted the rank of Count by the Kaiser.c) Counts shall be considered members of the Minor Nobility, and as such cannot vote in the Landsraad.d) Minor Nobility shall each be granted a plot of land by the Kaiser, known as a County.Lesser Nobility:a) The Lesser Nobility of Shireroth shall consist of Barons and Dukes.b) A Baron shall be a Count of Shireroth who, in contract with at least one other Count, is granted the authority to rule over the Counties and Manors constituent to the contract. Zir rule shall be deemed a Barony.c) A Duke shall be a Baron of Shireroth who, in contract with at least one other Baron, is granted the authority to rule over the Baronies, Counties, and Manors constituent to the contract. Zir rule shall be deemed a Duchy. Greater Nobility:a) The Greater Nobility of Shireroth shall consist of Thanes and High Thanes.b) Thanedoms shall be established by the Kaiser or Justice as geographically reasonable groupings of Counties whose culture and politics are mutually influenced. These Thanedoms should be named and may or may not overlap.c) A Lesser Noble of Shireroth who controls all Counties within a Thanedom shall be known as the Thane of that Thanedom.d) A Lesser Noble of Shireroth who controls all Counties within more than one Thanedom shall be known as the High Thane of those Thanedoms.e) In normal circumstances, the title of Thane or High Thane shall be given only to the Lesser Noble of highest rank who qualifies for the title; if a Duke controls a Barony which controls all Counties within a Thanedom, only the Duke shall be given the title of Thane and so forth. This may change subject to alliance contracts.Landsraad Votes:a) The Landsraad shall consist of the Lesser Nobility of Shirerothb) A non-subservient Baron receives one vote for each County within Zir fiefdom (including zir own County) and one extra vote for owning the title of Baron. This is to a maximum of four votes per independent Baron.c) A Duke receives one vote for every County within zir Duchy, one vote for every subservient Barony within zir Duchy (not counting zir own), an extra two votes for being a Duke, and also receives the pre-alliance votes of zir subservient Barons. These last votes may be leased or gifted back to the subservient Baron according to the contract written up between the two Nobles upon allying.d) Thanes and High Thanes receive no added authority to vote or speak within the Landsraad. Counts are not permitted to speak unless authority is granted because of a position of theirs such as Minister.Marriage and Joint Nobility:a) Joint Nobility shall be established with the contractual Marriage of Nobles.b) Nobles who share Joint Nobility may act as Nobles of each others' Fiefdoms, with restrictions as defined within their Marriage contract.This will require changes to the voting practices of the Landsraad, and to the Charter, which I plan to change through the normal channels. I implore all citizens to comment and criticise as they see fit. If your criticism is intelligent and to-the-point, I will listen to it. If it isn't, I won't. Edited by: Kaiser Yarad I at: 10/29/05 12:12

[AngelGuardian93]

As I see it, every proven citizen will be a count and have a vote in the Landsraad...? There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Fax Celestis]

It specifically states that citizens are not Counts until granted land by the Kaiser, and that Counts don't get to speak in the Landsraad. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[AngelGuardian93]

Ah, sorry, I got confused. :P There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[david northworthy beckfor]

is certainly interestinghow will politically mutualy influenceing lands be determined? If you feel an icy chill...the Conglacio is amongst you

[Fax Celestis]

By contract between fiefdoms.Should a contract be broken, the offended party may take it up with the Imperial Government through the Imperial Judex. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[osmose1000]

I'm quite wary about the focus upon counties. I mean, it seems that this new plan relies heavily upon the fact that all newcomers will want to start working on culture and building their own little plot in Shireroth. Now, for some this is a viable option, but there are many people online who have already built their little story, and the lure of just plugging it into our nation isn't good enough to make joining seem worthwhile.Additionally, who will keep track of the different alliances and update the maps accordingly? Are they willing and will they do it efficiently?But, more importantly than anything, what does this do? It really only alters Landsraad votes. How does this solution promote activity in the Landsraad? How does it promote joining Shireroth? How does it promote activity? All I can see happening is the same groupings as there are right now, with maybe one or two counties changing, and then everything turning back to normal. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[UEC]

the point of this isn't to change the way the LAndsraad runs. The Landsraad will still run the same way, vote distrobution will work differently.. but that's all.This will change the Base Territorial Unit of Shireroth from the Duchy to the County. So instead of creating duchies and dividing them up. It makes Counties the Base territorial unit and builds upon them. Think physics a bit.. Like Counties are Protons... The number of protons detirmines what is created. In this case the number of Counties detirmines what subdivisions will be created.Though I do point out.. when this goes into effect.. the Landsraad will be Empty.Also, the Decreebook section on alliances will proly have to be reviewed. but proly won't need to be changed. Or at the very least an exception for these agreements may need to be made.The last section of the chart will have to have all references to Duchies removed.. and replaced with a generic reference to "Sub-Divisions". That is all.The Lawbook/Landsraad Precedures may need updating in regards to Vote Distrobution.This will also permit for having Barons who are NOT under a Duke. (I like that..) So we could end up with alot of Autonomous Baronies. and a few Duchies...This will also, in essence give all citizens a noble title that, if they work with others, will allow them to create their own subdivisions, and not rely on the old. All old Duchies will be removed when this goes into effect. As a result we may see the creation of several new baronies, and the return of only a few duchies.. Most of these are predictions, and me pointing out how things will most likely need to be done to make this work..On a side note: I support this..Except the Thanes... I still find them pointless... E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, with this version of the proposition, they ARE pointless. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[david northworthy beckfor]

they would have point as a thing put in place ready for when we have a huge population...big enough to say that we are an empire with whole damn nations inside us! If you feel an icy chill...the Conglacio is amongst you

[AngelGuardian93]

I'm a bit foggy this morning (boy-ah-say, boy), but I need an example of how this would work. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

*glares at the atrocious use of his pseudonym* ________________It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word.-Andrew Jackson

[AngelGuardian93]

All apoligies son. As I said before, I was foggy. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[UEC]

Ok..... Let's us exemplify...I am the Count of Monty Crisco..Ok.. we are under the new system..I go talk to the Count of Alexandretta.. and we agree to merge and make a Barony with me as Baron. And we shall call our Barony.... Llamashire..I am now the Count of Monty Crisco. And the Baron of LlamaShire. The count of Alexandretta is under me. (if it where Alex I'de make a joke.. but it's not.. sadly..) Now as a Baron with 2 counties under me.. I have 2 votes in the Landsraad plus 1 for being a Baron. Now I have 3 votes in the Landsraad. If I pick up another County, I'll have 4 votes, but cannot exceed 4.Now.. due to my asperations of glory. I find the Barony of Mooseshire. Which has 2 Counties in it. I make an agreement with them to make a Duchy.NOW!I am the Duke of Brookshire. With 2 barons under me. and 5 counties. (assuming the count of Alexandretta becomes a Baron with Monty Crisco and Alexandretta as the Barony)..Now I have 1 vote for being Duke, 2 votes for my barons, and 5 votes for my counties making a total of..8 votes. I now have 8 votes in the Landsraad. and my barons have 0.I give both my Barons 2 votes for Alexandretta and 3 votes for Mooseshire and keep 3 for myself. (to be fair, I could just as easily give them less.. or more...)But NOW! As baron they can pick up more Counties and I get another vote for each one they pick up. BUT I can give that vote back to the Barons. So a Baron could have more than 4 votes under a Duke.This now that I think of it is either unfair to the Baron... or... Makes them more powerful than Dukes in the Landsraad.That proly needs to be balanced... E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Can I move that we publicize the original advisor thread in which we talked about this, which contains a painful amount of explanation and discussion?

[Fax Celestis]

I suppose. Ask the Kaiser.And the reason that Barons aren't as powerful as Dukes is that they are contractually bound to a specific number of votes. Not to mention that the Duke gets to determine votes, and hands out votes to his subordinates as per how he feels. Though that could use some clarification. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink RegigoraaukEdited by: Fax Celestis  at: 10/30/05 12:38

[Hypatia Agnesi]

I'd love to see people squabbling over counties if this went into effect. It could make internal (non-SNARL) recwars or recbattles interesting if we ended up swapping bits of land as a result. This could open up land politics to us as well, where we could bribe people with land if we wanted. *schemes*And...we could make a feudal economy more logically if we used counties as the base land unit, and had all counties producing stuff for the nobles controlling them. We could even have a tribute system that made sense!*schemes some more and waits for the screams of, "IT WON'T WORK!"*My only concern is the culture shock of running our feudalism more...feudally. And we'll have to completely revamp some sections of the Procedures and the Lawbook. I might be able to supervise that (and other updates that have been necessary but haven't been made yet), but I might also petition for an assistant Praetor if I start to get swamped.Oh, and before I forget, how would this impact the subdivision fora? How would we organize all of this?EDIT: Oh, and I just read the whole advisory council thread. Fascinating stuff.I think I'd want to have the Baronies/Duchies/Whatever telling me after the fact exactly who has how many votes, and who has the right to speak in the Landsraad. Keeping everything straight is a bit of a challenge already. *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!Edited by: Hypatia Agnesi at: 10/30/05 21:52

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Oh dear, it just occured to me that reading that other thread will reveal to people just how much thought went into this. With all that talk of Grand Duchies and land contiguity, people won't think that the proposal is slapdash and was put together in five minutes...my reputation will go down the toilet! Sorry, it's five in the morning, I've spent the last...far too many hours watching Lost, and I desperately need sleep.I'm reading all the comments, though, worry not.

[RicLyon]

This is an intriguing idea, but I am glad of Elwynn's autonomy and Elwynn awards counties to its citizens after they have shown commitment to the duchy, not the Empire as a whole.Elwynn also holds that a county is created whenever there is a need for one, not having one to be filled later.I'm sorry if this sounds outwardly negative, but I find the Kaiser's idea very interesting. I just would like to put some criticisms here. I'll post a pro-Kaiser post later

[Bill3000]

As a side fact, the Shireroth map has been updated for oodles of new Shireland counties. bill3000.hypermart.net/Sh...reroth.gifOnly divisions that I'll need would be the divisions of the territories of Yardistan; particularly, Jaris and Cognito. As well, I need the counties for Elwynn. Other than that, I just need to eliminate the bolded counties and we're set. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 10/31/05 7:46

[Bill3000]

I find "creating a county when there is a need for there to be one" completely disconcerining. Counties are there from the start, and are the basis for any country for the details. You have many diverse fictional people in your duchy, Ric - make divisions for them and detail it. A territory is a territory, and if you have no culture for them, (Which I highly doubt, given your remarkable skills) then just make it a blanck state in terms of culture.I like the basis behind the idea. We should become more fuedalistic if we want to be considered a feudalistic society, and this plan seems interesting. However, like every other plan, the success of this determines on how much people are willing to work. I don't agree with Harvey, who says that this plan will just result into everything turning back into here after a week - we should simply strive to be different.(...by the way, can we please take away the land of Automatica west of Brookshire? It is seriously confusing, considering that the histories have New Jasonia as the land of Automatica. Plus, New Jasonia just sounds ugly - I would just prefer New Jasonia to be called Automatica. We could just get some more land anyways.)As well, I think that the Landsraad needs a complete reformation in the first place. We should have politics to be more active here if we don't want to be a mere chatroom, and the current system is dead as a doornail. I think that we should unban political activist groups, although not political parties. (Even though I have realized that is futile in the first place, since it does not destroy factions as it intends.) Preventing activitist groups makes it almost impossible to have dissent. Of course, we can simply replace activist groups with the alliances between counties and the like, which might be more flavorful too - but either way, the treaties between duchies, etc. ban needs to be taken away.What I personally think should be done with the forums (which seems to be a problem) is this, in general:- Have a forum for the discussion and creation of alliances and politics betwen counties and other subdivisions.- Have a forum for independent counties, as well as minor Baronies and the like.- The larger subdivisions can have forums if they can be active enough - otherwise, we can just have people focus on the general subdivision forum.The Landsraad is another matter, something that I think I will propose in another thread, but its reform is needed as well. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I agree with Ric rather than Bill. Some new people may have their own ideas for what they want in their county. I know I had been doing geofiction stuff long before I ever entered micronations, and if someone had handed me a place called "Shimmerspring" or whatever and told me I had to fit some culture I wanted to use into that name, I would be much less interested than if I could name it whatever I wanted.

[UEC]

Rename it. E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[osmose1000]

I'd make some complaints here, but really all of them are more personal complaints than whether or not it would be good for the nation. I'll just stick whatever county you guys hand me under Greg. They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Hypatia Agnesi]

I think for the creative among us (and I by no means refer to myself when it comes to culture), being given a county with the wrong name, or being moved to a different county, could open up many potential story lines for fictional history.Perhaps there was a great exodus (as we've recently seen with Hallucination) from one location to another, where the culture moves and continues on, but the land still remembers it. Perhaps one culture moves in when a new Count takes over and completely displaces the one that was there before, and you get to fill in the blanks. I could go on with the possibilities.I don't know about anyone else, but I think that might be really interesting when done by someone who cares. *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[UEC]

I don't see this as a problem. People can always rename the Counties they are given. People from certain areas right now can just be given those areas back... Give Nick Yardistan proper.. Greg Amity. Me Monty Crisco. Scott Hyperborea ...etc.... There isn't really any overlap.. And Moose could get Mirioth.. than merge with Greg to remake BAM... And all is as it was with them, if that pleases me.James and Shyriath could merge together (assuming Shyriath get's Benacia back... which he should...).. and remake Muadib.. (I'm sorry james.. I CANOT spell the new name.. or remember it.. let alone pronounce it... so I can't spell or remember it... as I don't have it as a word in my mind.. moving on..)I could remake Alexandretta with Monty Crisco and whoever Get's the County of Alexandretta..Though it would be kinda fun to just invade Alexandretta...Take over...HOWEVER!.. there is a problem.. we have only a fixed number of Counties.. especially a problem in certain regions..If I recruited alot of people again, while spiffy.. they couldn't all come with me into Brookshire.. even if they wanted too... as in theory I would run out of Counties in that area.. I could spill over into Goldshire.. but what if that is full/fills up?And slicing up preexsisting lands will proly realllllly anger people... I'de be pissed if Monty Crisco got a shave and haircut...So the new system may remove some old problems.. but it'll make all new ones. There is no such things as a perfect solution. it's only perfect till you find the flaws the patch made. E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Shyriath]

Quote:James and Shyriath could merge together (assuming Shyriath get's Benacia back... which he should...)Well, no one's ever really told me I'm no longer Count of Benacia, so as far as I know I still have it. I suppose I could've missed the memo... But yes.... Erik's got a good point on that last bit. There are enough counties on the current map to last us a good while (at least in those areas that have been divided up), but if we run out, what happens afterward?

[Hypatia Agnesi]

I was just checking the map, and I counted 51 counties, not including any divisions in Elwynn proper and Hyperborea proper which are not on the map. Does anyoe honestly think we'll ever have more than 50 active citizens at a time, without absorbing another nation and thereby gaining even more land? I counted 23 counties in Brookshire alone! *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!Edited by: Hypatia Agnesi at: 10/31/05 16:44

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Quote:Well, no one's ever really told me I'm no longer Count of Benacia, so as far as I know I still have it. I suppose I could've missed the memo...Uhh, yeah, you're still the Count, unless Greg's been up to something while all of us weren't paying attention I thought I'd posted on this earlier, mainly in response to Bill's comments:There will be a new forum called the Noble Commons, where independent Counts can fraternise, and where all alliances between nobles should be announced. Obviously this will require that the law banning inter-fiefdom alliances be repealed.Anything upwards of a two-person Barony should be given their own forum, though. This is a special reward, methinks.Obviously the Landsraad is in need of reform. This is not what I want to achieve with this proposal, this is to slot a new method of feudalism into more or less the current system. Perhaps that should be next, though, as the active system I've thought of should have an accompanying active Landsraad.51 Counties so far? Man oh man...that's quite a lot. I'd have no problem with people renaming their own County so long as the name was appropriate and so forth, and not Assland or something.I think I'm going to need to get another Imperial Justice, and a lot of what they do is going to involve contracts and disagreements. Anyone interested? *prepares for chorus of "No!"'s*

[Fax Celestis]

Hell, I renamed Naudia'Diva. Twice. I also built it from nothing.Besides, grabbing a bit of land with a name on it already, changing the name, and calling it yours is traditional feudal practice.And Bill, renaming "Automatica" isn't the purpose of this, though perhaps you should talk ot the historians; if that was where Automatica resided, Automatica it should be. Unless you can find another name. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk