Proposition to the Kaiser:

[Phoenix the Risen]

This is not an act to amend the Lawbook, but instead to suggest an amendment to the Charter to our wonderful benevolent Kaiser. After miswriting FHA IV.5 II, many nobles mistook my proposed change to the Lawbook as an attack against Barons. However, it was not meant as such. Under our current voting system, a Duke can not only invalidate his Barons' votes, but he can take them right away. No Baron is guaranteed a vote in the Landsraad. I see this as just plain wrong. FHA IV.5 II was meant to restrict the Duke from pulling his Barons' votes, but I realize that such a law would be, for lack of a better term, unconstitutional.Therefore, I propose this amendment to the Imperial Charter to our Kaiser. I promise that with my proposed system, in conjunction with Part I of the Feudal Holdings Act IV.5, will create more secure procedures within our Landsraad and help to stimulate the growth of the Nation.Lord Zirandorthel, you may choose how you wish to deal with this in terms of the Landsraad.Quote:Section D: Votes.Each Duchy shall be given six votes to cast within the Landsraad. A Ruling Duke/Duchess may divide these vote up among the nobles of his/her duchy as he/she sees fit, keeping in mind that he/she must control at least half the total votes. The Prætor must be informed of how a Duchy’s votes are distributed before any vote from that duchy may be cast.Amended to:Quote:Section D: Votes.Each Duchy shall be granted five votes to cast within the Landsraad. The Duke may choose to divide these votes in part or in full among the Barons of his Duchy, or retain all five votes for himself. Each Barony shall be granted two votes to cast within the Landsraad independent of its Duchy's votes. All Nobles must register their Nobility with the Prætor in order to receive their votes. A Duke must register his distribution of votes with the Prætor before he may cast his votes. Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Kaiser Mors III]

Wait.. errr? No?You are reducing Duchy votes from 6 to 5.. and giving All Baronies automatic 2 votes? No.. this throws off the balance of power completely.But I will back up the fact that Barons... sorry to tell ya.. you aren't Granted votes.. they are gifted.. votes. A Duke does NOT Have to give his/her barons ANY votes. And a Duke can "Pull" his vote at ANY time from his barons.. As it stands... say.. JD.. could take back her votes from Lunaris and... errr... Lunaris.. guess she only has 1 barony... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Scott Alexander]

Slightly related question - are individuals allowed to change their Duchies and Baronies whenever they wanted? Like could Eoin just get up and choose to move to Lunaris tomorrow?

[Phoenix the Risen]

Erik- this does not throw off the balance of power. Right now all the Duchies with Baronies have four or less votes to themselves, and their Barons two or more already. This bill would decrease the amount of sway Duchies without Baronies (Kildare and Loth) have and rebalance the others. In this way, Dukes would have a motivation to gain more loyal citizens, because by doing so they may create more Baronies to help sway their own votes. This is the reason and motivation for which I am trying to tighten the restrictions on creating Baronies and Duchies with the FHA-IV.5-I. This change would, in effect, strenghthen both the Duchies and the Baronies. The Duchies would be able to keep their votes without feeling guilty about their Barons, and the Baronies wouldn't have to worry about the Dukes stealing their votes.Scott - as it is, we have no border crossing laws except for those provided in the prior FHA, which stated that a citizen must give one day's notice before relocating... technically, I suppose, a Duke or Baron could ban Emigration from his subdivision, or if given that one day notice, set up borderguards to keep the person in (which was partly the point of the clause)... but there is no national law against relocation between duchies. Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Kaiser Mors III]

Joseph.. I'de like to point out a fact you seem to have forgoten.. the Landsraad is a Council of DUKES... Barons are here out of niceity.... Including Barons.. ALL duchies have 6 votes.. Balanced. Barons are not Entitled to Votes. We tried that system... Barons could get to the point were they could over power their dukes...Scott, People can move Baronies/duchies whenever they want.. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Gman Russell]

Have I ever voiced my opinion regarding this fuedal system?

[Kaiser Mors III]

Not that I know... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Gman Russell]

Good... I don't want to be hanged as a witch.

[Phoenix the Risen]

Kaiser, that is why I put the clause in FHA IV.5 II about Dukes being able to invalidate their Barons' votes... but that was badly written and so I killed it. I will put it back up in a few days, when personal shit stabilizes for me, but the thing is, a Baron can't overpower his Duke if his Duke can invalidate the Baron's vote. Also, the point of this is not for Dukes to make Baronies carelessly, but to make Barons of the people they can trust, that way they won't have to even worry at all about their Barons overpowering them. This act will make our system even closer to Feudalism rather than Representative Democracy. Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Kaiser Mors III]

IT would overly complicate the system... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Phoenix the Risen]

helloooo? Prætor? Going to do anything with this?! Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Kaiser Mors III]

I don't think there is much to be done with it... and it still is an active.. ish.. discussion.. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Zirandorthel]

Precisely, and bear in mind that I'm in a different timezone from you. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'Taras

[Phoenix the Risen]

it's still been up for four days...Prætor, this is your chance to set a precedent. Never before has a proposition regarding the charter been brought before the Landsraad. Should we make this a discussion? Should we make it a vote? Should we make it a formal document or letter and gather signatures?Lead us, o' wise and powerful one! Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Kaiser Mors III]

Wouldn't it be your call? You proposed it... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Zirandorthel]

Well, I think that the current system works just fine, and if we try to overregulate the privilege of a Duke to hand out votes to their subordinates, then we'll create ill feeling. I think six is a good number too, for each Duchy, since it lessens the chance of there being a 50-50 split between the votes.. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'Taras

[Gman Russell]

Erik allready knows my feelings on this, and I will support, wholeheartedly, ANY bill that gives Barons more of a secure vote.

[Kaiser Mors III]

Once again I remind Barons that they aren't even supposed to be in the Landsraad to start with. It would simplify many things to remove them from the Landsraad or to not let them vote all together. (though would make things to simple).It does kinda displease me that barons are making a fuss over something they aren't really given the right to. It's a priviledge.. and in a way they are "looking a gift horse in the mouth"...But this is a common thing. Like the Landsraad doesn't NEED to exsist. But is granted as a nicety.. But if I took it away.. bitching and moaning follow.. It's a standard human thing.. people forget that things that may be given to them are priviledges not rights... and when they lose them.. they act like they have the right to it.. or that they desirve more. In theory one solution is to take away what they think is their right outright... till they realize they aren't given it by right... and have no right or such to ask for more.. thus when it is given back, they better appreciate it. Sounds Machiavellian..I know.. But if you think about it.. It's true... (Pyschology and Machiavellianism Meet! hehe) Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Phoenix the Risen]

Prætor, you frustrate me. I am not asking for your opinion on this specific bill; I am asking for your guidance as to what to do with this sort of bill. By this sort of bill, I mean ones which propose change to the Charter rather than the Lawbook. Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Kaiser Mors III]

The thing is.. you CAN"T change the charter... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Phoenix the Risen]

I know - which is why it is a different kind of bill.The Prætor could set it up as a document that Dukes would sign (reminiscent of the original voting system), maybe have an equal-terms vote among all Nobles, have a double-stage vote of standard Landsraad and then equal-terms of the Dukes... there are many ways we can go about such an action...But since we actually can't change the Lawbook, the finished document would be sent to the Kaiser, with the results of the votes, and he could, by seeing the voice of his subjects, decide whether to heed or even to consider the action.I just need the Prætor to lead us... Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Kaiser Mors III]

Err.. if you say so.. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Zirandorthel]

I was told when I took office that:a) The Charter was sacrosanctandb) Not to bother with the Charter.I mean, the Charter is not the Landsraad's jurisdiction, in my view. It's the Imperial Charter, after all, it's the Kaiser's message to us all, basically. It's not in my duties so far to do anything with it, nor will it be, probably.Sorry, Joseph, I took your meaning wrong. I'd recommend for you to bring that to the Kaiser's Court and plead your case there, since it's him who writes and can edit (presumably) the Charter, not the Landsraad. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'Taras

[Kaiser Mors III]

Indeed.. that is what my Court is for... and making Decrees.. and holding Hearings... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Gman Russell]

Hrm... I just figured out why Shireroth has lasted so long...

[Phoenix the Risen]

why? because it takes six days for people to figure out what the hell other people are talking about? Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Kaiser Mors III]

HAha... maybe.. maybe.. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Gryphon Avocatio]

Becasue we are extremely long-winded...heh...sounds about right... -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas Give me your child, and by the age of five, I can make him a priest or a thief or a scholar. - SCOTT: You know, I always joke about how nothing will ever be able to get me out of micronations...but...I think if my mother got into micronations that would get me out in a hurry. - GUILDENSTERN:We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.

[Kaiser Mors III]

Yet/.... really informal alot of the times... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Gman Russell]

I can't remember my reason now... *falls down anime style* -_-; curse the bad memory...