Thoughts on Shirerithian nationhood

[Fax Celestis]

I'm with you on this. I've always held Shireroth to be more of a home to me than anywhere else on this planet. I'm comfortable here, and I love this place with all my heart.For me, at least, Shireroth is primarily a place to unwind. I enjoy our political structure, even when I disagree or am frightened by others' actions. Most people I want in my wedding party (or indeed, at my wedding) are or have been Shirithians at some point.At least for me, Shireroth has first been a nation and second a state, though I will promote and prolong the state through my actions best I can. I think that the Shirithian state is core to the Shirithian nation, and that, though we don't say it much, we've developed into a sort of meritocracy, where the good leaders rise to the top. Our new feudalism supports that, where people will voluntarily contractually bind themselves to others because they trust their guidance....I don't have a conclusion for this, unfortunately, but that's pretty much how I feel, and have felt for a long time. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Scott of Hyperborea]

for leaving. I'm very upset about Osmose and Gryphon leaving Shireroth, as I'm sure a lot of other people are, but for me it's not entirely at Shireroth's losing their many talents and abilities. I felt like they sort of belonged in Shireroth, and that for them to just up and leave would be like for a Jewish person to convert to Christianity - a denial of who they are.So, here is the first part of my theory. Shireroth is primarily a nation, and only secondarily a state. For those of you who do not know the terminology, political science makes a sharp distinction between a nation and a state. A state is a political entity, a government, a country, if you will. The US, Iraq, Israel, South Korea, the UK - all are states. A nation, on the other hand, is a group of people with the same culture and values. The Kurds, for example, are a nation even though there are Kurds in Iraq and Kurds in Turkey and they don't have a state of their own. Korea is one nation, even though it's currently divided into the two states of North Korea and South Korea. And Israel contains both part of the Jewish nation and, as of the present, the Palestinian nation, which is currently stateless. Then, of course, there are some nations that are also states - the French in France, for example. In political theory, one idealistic goal is to have one nation, one state: so the Palestinians would get their state, the Jews would get their state, the Koreans would get a unified state, and so on. Anyway, saying Shireroth is a nation wouldn't be anything very new - we have our own culture and values that are different from those of either Babkha or the United States. That Shirerithian nation happens to have the Shirerithian state, the Kaiser and Landsraad, but it would be conceivable for it to have a different state, like a direct democracy, or to be partitioned into several states, and still remain the Shirerithian nation.But I want to go beyond that. Here is the second part of my theory. Membership in the Shirerithian nation is linked not to the specifics of the Shirerithian state, but to a general personality type that can be found in people around the world. Thus, to be considered a part of the Shirerithian nation, a person need not be a Cedrist, or believe in feudalism, or be familiar with ancient Apollonian-Benacian history. They just need to be "our sort of person". I leave "our sort of person" as an undefined predicate here, because there's no one decision procedure for who is a Shirerithian and who isn't. But I'm going to guess that everyone has had experiences like I did on the English bus - seeing someone and going "Wow, that person would make a great Shirerithian". And, contrariwise, I'll bet you can all imagine people who, if they heard about Shireroth and tried to join, you would have to say "No, I'm sorry, that country's just not right for you."If we were to accept this theory, it would radically change our conception of Shireroth. In the present, I feel like the goal of recruitment campaigns is that we want the Shirerithian state to be as glorious and powerful as possible, so we try and get people who would contribute to it. According to this theory, that conception is entirely backward. Shireroth should be recruiting for the same reason the Zionists did. The Zionists saw that there were a lot of Jews all over the world but no one Jewish state. So they declared Israel independent and said "Here's a state just for Jews, where we can pursue our own stuff separate from everyone else". Even today, Israel actively encourages Jews to immigrate and actively discourages everyone else. Shireroth should be similar, but be selecting not on basis of religion but on basis of the intangible yet undeniable qualities we call Shirerithian. We should be saying "Here is this group of people - call them the nifty. Currently, nifty people are spread across all countries, and oppressed under the rule of decidedly un-nifty people. Here we have a state run entirely by and for nifty people, and it is our manifest destiny to collect the entire Shirerithian nation, currently spread among all the nations of the world, under one banner."Shireroth, then, is not just the forum where the Shirerithian state happens to run its affairs, but the gathering place for the Shirerithian people. For the past while, we have been sadly lacking in things to do, because there's only so much point to a state. We can pass laws, and we can kind of pretend to do things like fight wars and write fictional histories. As a nation, however, we are the place for Shirerithians to do things with other Shirerithians. We ought to be a center for political debate, for the arts, for playing games, Anything that can be done elsewhere on the Internet should be doable in Shireroth, and should be better, because it is being done with Shirerithians.To believe that there really is a Shirerithian nation would do more than change the way we act here. It would change the way people think about being in Shireroth. It would mean that there would no longer be this crazy need to emigrate the second you think you won't be holding a state job anymore. When I was talking to Moose, he admitted that he was a Shirerithian and always would be. He just felt like he didn't want to deal with the politics of the Shirerithian state anymore. But not wanting to be a politician in Shireroth should no more make you less a Shirerithian than not being a Congressman makes you American. To instill the belief that the Shirerithian state is merely an apparatus created to govern a much more important Shirerithian nation would prevent people from making that kind of mistake.Every country needs some kind of philosophical glue to hold it together. I'm going to try and flesh out this idea further when I have more time, but it just seems intuitively attractive to me.

[AngelGuardian93]

So basicly... what Scott is saying is exactly what I was preaching about community first when I was kaiser...? There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Shyriath]

Quote:Then, of course, there are some nations that are also states - the French in France, for example. The state that-is-France comprises more than the nation-that-is-France, mind you. There are a number of linguistic minorities that are under French hegemony... the Basques (at least, some of them), the Corsicans, the Bretons, the Alsatians. And those are just the native ones. Just my bit of pedantry. Quote:So basicly... what Scott is saying is exactly what I was preaching about community first when I was kaiser...?Sounds like it, yep. You're more of a visionary than you thought, eh? But, yes, I definitely know the feeling. I have a friend who I've been telling about Shireroth for a while now, and I've always hoped he would join, because he seems like... well, he seems like that kind of person. Except that, what with roleplaying and his job and other things he has to deal with, he wouldn't have time for it, so although he's considered it, he's never actually tried to join. But he always listens whenever I tell him about what's going on in Shireroth.

[Erik Mortis]

I've been of this oppinion for years... Erik Mortis BrookshireEricir Murtil ranna ChasemónCount of Monty CriscoRetired Ex-Everything.Member of The Programmers' Guild of ShirerothShirerithian ElderGeneral in the YAC

[Stjepan Veliki]

Cute. SF-SNEdited by: Stjepan Veliki at: 11/19/05 13:44

[AngelGuardian93]

Why'd you change your post? There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[AngelGuardian93]

Hm... *ponders...* There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Stjepan Veliki]

I thought I read something in the text which I now can't find again.I still stand by the first part though. It is cute. It's like Scott is trying to become the Herder of micronationalism, though I think he will find that it won't change things that much. It will just take a lot of the wind out of the sails of people whining about there not being enough government stuff to do and such.Mostly, it means acknowledging Shireroth for what it already is. That's not a bad thing, of course - but I don't think its terribly revolutionary to see Shireroth as a community as well as a state.I would question some of the comparisons though. Zionism had an appeal to a group which was very conscious of itself, whereas this idea seeks to appeal to "Shirerithians" with no "Shirerithian consciousness". In short, you are creating the nation, not simply gathering it into one place. SF-SNEdited by: Stjepan Veliki at: 11/19/05 16:14

[vasroixe]

Most if not all micro-nations cannot really call themselves states, and my experience has shown that nationalism is usually not shared by everyone in a micronation, oddly enough. And they are micronationalists after all. I think it might have something to do with the fact that this is just the internet, and there aren't real penalties and rewards like pay raises, firings, firing squads, hirings, ... Shirerothian PatriotPrince of ByzantiaEdited by: vasroixe  at: 11/19/05 20:55

[Stjepan Veliki]

I don't think I understand you. SF-SN

[Stjepan Veliki]

As a precondition to nationalism, one must have emotional feelings for their nation and for something artificial and new to a person, that takes time to come to.Most people are really just more interested in simulating the state aspect probably, and when that runs out, they treat it as any other game and move on to something else when they're bored. SF-SN

[Bill3000]

I still do not feel nationalistic about Shireroth, but that's what you get when you are as bitter as me. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Bill3000]

We have fictional land. And either way, there have been nations that were comprised of more than one nation. Tymaria is the quintessential example of such a micronation. As well, there have been micronations that could have been considered to be one state, but seperate nations - Antica, for one, Menelmacar for another, although it would eventually fade away as differences appear. (Ignoring the success of such micronations)There are plenty of penalties, but it is only in the matter of who enforces those penalties. Banning from a successful micronation works, as an example. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[vasroixe]

Shireroth is not a state and most if not all micronations are not states, because they do not have land.Because micronations don't have land, they can't /really/ do things like those I mentioned when I said...Quote:I think it might have something to do with the fact that this is just the internet, and there aren't real penalties and rewards like pay raises, firings, firing squads, hirings, ... Shirerothian PatriotPrince of ByzantiaEdited by: vasroixe  at: 11/21/05 11:40

[Stjepan Veliki]

We're obviously talking about a simulated context. Of course there is no real land. However, it would be wrong to say there is no state because there...well..simply are simulated state structures. This place (and all micronations of similar form) has in fact been more built around those state structures than it has been around anything else so it's a pretty obtuse argument to make that somehow the state doesn't factor. Regardless of that though, I see absolutely no connection between that and nationalism as one does not need a state to have feelings for the nation. In short, claiming that the state is somehow a prerequisite to nationalism, if that is your argument (which I can't tell because it's beginning to look more and more like a non-sequitur), is completely and utterly false. SF-SNEdited by: Stjepan Veliki at: 11/21/05 21:46

[Bill3000]

The fact that the definition of what consists of a nation is "what the people think of what consists of a nation" bothers me a lot. I would rather have a more concise definition. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Stjepan Veliki]

There isn't one. Sorry Nationalism is about love, is emotional, and thus not necessarily rationally founded. SF-SN

[AngelGuardian93]

Love and emotion, both on Bill's hit list I think. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Sebastien Alexandre]

I do think Shireroth is a state, in it's own right.Quote:Main Entry: stateFunction: nounoften attrib 1 a : a politically organized body of people usually occupying a definite territory; especially : one that is sovereign b : the political organization that has supreme civil authority and political power and serves as the basis of government —see also compelling state interest at INTEREST 3a, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE c : a government or politically organized society having a particular character 2 : the operations or concerns of the government of a country : the sphere of administration and supreme political power of a country (as in international relations)