Happy Birthday, Euroflag

[RicLyon]

Today the European flag celebrates its fiftieth birthday. It's the flag of the Council of Europe (in which all European countries except for Belarus and Kazakhstan are members of) and of the 25-country big EU.It wasn't adopted officially, however, until December 8th 1955.*sings eurohymn* Edited by: RicLyon at: 11/18/05 5:07

[Tahmaseb]

Ahem. Kazakhstan is not an European country. So Belarus is the only one missing. Then again the Council does have some Asian members as well. Freaky, isn't it?But yay for the flag!

[RicLyon]

Kazakhstan does have land in Europe... About the size of Wales I think, or something like that. Richard LyonYansha Elaer Kyon gef ShanPernem kahn gef kuymal per varga stiPernem kahn gef varga per kuymal sti

[Stjepan Veliki]

Yeah, well...kind of...The eastern boundary of Europe, where Kazakhstan supposedly has land in Europe, is nothing more than an arbitrary line chosen by politicians. SF-SN

[RicLyon]

Geographically all of Cyprus is in Asia...And if they didn't choose a border, then Europe wouldn't exist. Afterall, it is Eurasia.A Eurasian Union anybody?Hmm... Talking about that, what Asian countries would qualify as EU members (except for the geographic requirement of course). South Korea and Japan would if they abolished the death penalty. Other than that I don't think any Asian state would qualify. Maybe Israel, India and Indonesia.

[Stjepan Veliki]

Cyprus is in Asia. It's culturally European thoughAnd I rather argue that the border they chose from where Kazakhstan crosses into Europe is especially problematic. Want to know what major geographical boundaries are there?...That's right. None. It's steppe country with a few rivers. The Ural mountains don't even extend that far south.But more importantly is the concept of "Europe". Trying to define it as a precise geographical entity is doomed to failure because it quite simply doesn't exist as a distinct geographic space. The "Europeanness" of a country must be determined by other factors as well; history and culture - because more than anything "Europe" is a cultural construct and an identity. It's boundaries can shift, but Kazakhstan, in relation to its own history, culture, and identity, is firmly anchored in Central Asia. SF-SN

[RicLyon]

Would we then argue Canada to be a culturally European country? Or Israel?And Kazakhstan lived under Russian rule for millions of years - surely that makes them slightly European... Richard LyonYansha Elaer Kyon gef ShanPernem kahn gef kuymal per varga stiPernem kahn gef varga per kuymal sti

[Ryan]

Mongolia would probably qualify for a Eurasian Alliance. They used Cyrillic and most of the historic Mongolian has been replaced with Russian anyways... Useless art is simply tolerated vandalism. I am a vandal.

[RicLyon]

Yeah Mongolia would. A stable democracy, a bit poor though... But they have the death penalty.

[Stjepan Veliki]

Quote:Would we then argue Canada to be a culturally European country? Or Israel?Um...yeah bro. Both Canada and Israel are clearly European culturally. They are not European by other criteria though.Quote:And Kazakhstan lived under Russian rule for millions of years - surely that makes them slightly European...millions of years? More like 150, and it was colonial rule in nature. The Central Asian states were always ruled as distinct from the Russian Empire proper. Have some Kazakhs been Europeanized? Sure. But so have lots of people who had European rule and cultural power imposed forcibly on them.Seriously, the only reason Kazakhstan is remotely considered to have land in Europe is because NATO drew the line for what constitutes Europe as far east as they could negotiate in order to put as much distance between the Soviet military as they could. SF-SNEdited by: Stjepan Veliki at: 11/19/05 12:21

[Ryan]

Culturally though, the Kazakhs do have some ties to Europe as well. What with being the origin of the Cossack culture which is now spread across the Urals, Don, Caucasus and several other areas within Europe. Useless art is simply tolerated vandalism. I am a vandal.

[Stjepan Veliki]

The Cossacks and Kazakhs have nothing to do with each other, apart from a handful of forts in modern northwestern Kazakhstan that were founded by Cossacks in the 17th century and eventually grew into cities.It seems to be a big misconception since there is another kid I know who kept trying to tell me that Kazakhstan was some kind of Cossack cultural state. It isn't. The names are just derived from the same Turkic root word.The centers of Cossack culture were Zaporizhiya (Ukrainian Cossacks) and the Don basin. They expanded from west to east towards the Urals and into Siberia. Not the other way around. SF-SNEdited by: Stjepan Veliki at: 11/19/05 17:54

[vasroixe]

I have a euroflag in my room from my Europe trip. Who someone mind posting the euroanthem? Shirerothian PatriotPrince of Byzantia

[Stjepan Veliki]

Easy enough to find. Just hum Ode to Joy. SF-SN

[Tahmaseb]

One must remember that joining the EU requires not only a good record in human rights, no death penalty and that sorts but also a good economy. So in Asia there are no countries that match all these. As Ric said Japan and South Korea are the closest, but the death penalty makes it impossible.Other countries in the world that could make it are probably Australia, New Zealand, Canada and some obscure island states in the Pacific.Oh, the Euroanthem. I've always found the concept a bit dubious, taking a part of a wonderful work to make a hymn. I feel like Alex in the Clockwork Orange when they use good old Ludwig van when rehabilitating him. Edited by: Tahmaseb Shah at: 11/20/05 0:22

[Osman Shahanshah]

One of my biggest of objections to the European Union is its aversion to the death penalty. There are many thousands of people who deeply deserve to die but are kept alive out of deference to some ridiculous arbitary notion as the universal right to life.

[Sibir Khan]

*nods in agreement with Ardy*If some asshole goes and rapes a 13 year old girl, then he deserves no less than a bullet in the head. And that's just one of many examples.

[Tahmaseb]

Not really, I think death is too easy.

[david northworthy beckfor]

I agree with Tahmaseb. What punishment is it to never feal pain, or guilt ever again. because that is what being executed is. perminant pain killer and anti depressent.anyway, you also have the problem that, as humans are not in fallible, it is possible that we would execute the wrong person.finally, what if such a person could be remade into a normal human being? then the human population has benifited from not killing them. If you feel an icy chill...the Conglacio is amongst you

[Bill3000]

You kidding? I love the fact that the EU bans the Death Penalty. It gives people an excuse to call the US uncivilized. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[vasroixe]

Quote:*nods in agreement with Ardy*If some asshole goes and rapes a 13 year old girl, then he deserves no less than a bullet in the head. And that's just one of many examples.That seems about right doesn't it? If that would serve as an example for all those other a**holes so they don't go out and do they same thing, then that would be great. But I'm not so sure the death penalty is stopping these people, man. Sure there are always going to be the criminals who say "I ain't gonna get caught." But I wonder if there are criminals who think "Well, even if I don't get caught, I won't get the death penalty". Is the death penalty a real deterrent for crime? There need to be serious studies on this. There need to be questionairres sent out to criminals. It's not a "duh" question us normal people. But the freaks out there are still committing crimes. If the death penalty isn't serving as a deterrent to crime then I see no practical purpose for it other than to create emotional drama for TV shows and politicians needing votes. The death penalty can't be either way. If it is found that the death penalty DOES work as a deterrent to crime then it needs to be all or nothing, baby. Fry 'em. If that scares the hell out of these a**holes out on the street raping whatever crosses the street, then by all means do whatever it takes to reduce crime for the benefit of the majority population which is not criminally insane. But if it serves no overall benefit other than to , then sure it would be nice then, but it is not serving an overal benefit. I know i know the emotional feelin of vengeance is great but we are a nation founded on stoic philosophical ideals. Instead of focusing on punishment, government should focus on reducing crime. Shirerothian PatriotPrince of Byzantia

[Osman Shahanshah]

Quote: I agree with Tahmaseb.What punishment is it to never feal pain, or guilt ever again. because that is what being executed is. perminant pain killer and anti depressent.anyway, you also have the problem that, as humans are not in fallible, it is possible that we would execute the wrong person.finally, what if such a person could be remade into a normal human being? then the human population has benifited from not killing them.Well I disagree with Tahmaseb I do not much care if a murderer, terrorist or traitor spends the rest of their life plagued by pain, guilt or remorse - I care only for their removal from existance - their personal feelings on the matter are of no consequence to me. American statistics suggest that it costs the US $20,804 to keep a prisoner in jail for a year (Figure taken from Cato Institute website). The current market cost of a 5.56 mm round is 21 cents.Obviously some violent offenders can be rehabilitated into society. However there are some who the state and the community should have no interest in rehabilitating, the hoped for potential fate of the peadophile pop-star currently detained in Vietnam where they shoot rapists, one Garry Glitter springs to mind. Similarly with Rose West or Lee Boyd Malvo why should they be kept alive at taxpayers expense just on the off chance they may repent?Of course the main detraction from the death penalty is that innocent people may be caught up in the process, this is why there ought to be every opportunity to appeal sentences and why the supreme penalty should be applied over the narrowest range.Finally those who suggest that capital punishment lacks the deterent punch required to make criminals desist from their acts miss the point. This ought only to be a secondary objective. The primary purpose of capital punishment ought to be to remove the baleful influence of certain individuals, whose rehabilitation is either not possible or desired, from society.

[AngelGuardian93]

If I may add a crazed, slightly sci-fi slant to this (ok, directly stolen from 'Babylon 5'), I would like to see the development of some sort of mind-wipe system instead of the death penalty, then you should put them to work doing the crap jobs of society. It's both mercifull AND cost effective. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find. Edited by: AngelGuardian93  at: 11/21/05 16:19