An odd government-related discussion

[Bill3000]

I do plan to reply in my other thread eventually, but here I am going to make a philosophical argument that seems to be analagous to "Can god make a boulder so big that even He can't lift it?" ( Omnipotence Paradox )Namely, the Kaiser is implicitly limitless in power. The fact that the Landsraad exists, or that we are allowed to have a fuedalistic society at all is in the will of the Kaiser. The Kaiser can literally do whatever he wants. Let's ignore the implications of the negatives of absolute power. (e.g. abuse of power = a dead nation) What I mean is this: Can a Kaiser limit the Kaiser's own power? Let's take an example. A Kaiser makes a decree stating that the same decree that is being stated, cannot be undecreed by a Kaiser, and in the same decree, decrees something significant. This is directly analogous to the omnipotence paradox. Simply put, "Can a Kaiser make a decree such as that he himself cannot undecree it?" It's been bugging me for awhile, and while this probably won't happen anyways, it does offer a seeming loophole in the system. Is the Kaiser bound to his own laws, or can he willingly ignore them? Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 11/6/05 7:40

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I don't think that he could simply decree that a decree cannot be revoked, because he could then simply revoke the "this decree cannot be revoked" part (or even edit it out).However, I do think there would be a way to do this, with enough attention to logic and little steps. I don't think it would be a good idea to think too hard about it or remind Kaisers that it's possible. And even if legally it worked, in practice my guess is that a future Kaiser could throw it out without anyone protesting.

[Fax Celestis]

Right. As soon as a Kaiser leaves office, he is no longer god-of-all-creation; the next Kaiser is, and therefore has every right to edit everything in the laws.That is, of course, except for how the Landsraad works. The Charter (which the Kaiser can edit, but usually doesn't) has a provision that disallows the Kaiser from editing the Landsraad's procedures. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[david northworthy beckfor]

and so the boss man can edit the charter, remove the bit about non interference, and go ahead and appoint his best mate as the single voting member If you feel an icy chill...the Conglacio is amongst you

[Fax Celestis]

He can, but there's this little thing called "trust" that we're supposed to have in the Kaiser. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[david northworthy beckfor]

I do!just a warning incase I accidently get the throne If you feel an icy chill...the Conglacio is amongst you

[RicLyon]

I think you need to rejoin Shireroth to even have that possibility

[AngelGuardian93]

Yeah, come back to us, he who is pretty! There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Kaiser Yarad I]

All this "undecreeable decree" stuff is making my head hurt. Too much like philosophy of religion class..

[Fax Celestis]

[16:01] Bill7D0: According to Erik, if a Kaiser decrees that the same decree cannot be undecreed or edited, and in the same decree declares that past Kaisers' decrees have the same merit as future decrees, we are shit out of luck. :p [16:01] Fax Celestis: There's always a way[16:02] Bill7D0: Yes, but only if you ignore part of the rules...[16:02] Fax Celestis: But a future Kaiser can always decree that Kaiser's decrees invalid by imperial decree. Which would then negate the "merit" clause,[16:03] Bill7D0: Not if in the same decree the past Kaiser decrees that it cannot be undecreed. A Kaiser would be violating his own law.[16:04] Fax Celestis: Then all he has to do is make a new decree saying that all decrees by Kaiser Suchandsuch are to be ignored as he is a traitor to the crown.[16:07] Bill7D0: But what if the same decree stated otherwise?[16:08] Fax Celestis: What do you mean? I'm referring to a Kaiser after Kaiser Ridiculous, who made the initial undecreeable decree[16:09] Bill7D0: That the same undecreeable decree by Kaiser Ridiculous stated that his decrees could not be ignored and not be declared a traitor to the crown.[16:09] Fax Celestis: Kaiser Brilliant could figure a way. The thing is, the in-power Kaiser is god-supreme. Preceding Kaisers are dead and gone, and have no power.[16:10] Bill7D0: But remember that the undecreeable decree altered that to say that preceding Kaisers have the same power in the present as they did in the past.[16:11] Fax Celestis: The current Kaiser also has the right and the power to edit preceding Kaiserial decrees at will[16:11] Bill7D0: Remember that the same decree stated that the undecreeable decree cannot be edited.[16:12] Fax Celestis: Then the current Kaiser only hasto make a decree stating that he is able to edit any and all past decrees of Kaisers as per his perogative and position. The current Kaiser still takes precedence because he can act.[16:14] Bill7D0: Hrm. What if in the same Undecreeable decree, it was stated that no future Kaiser can make a decree stating that he could edit a decree? *tongue twists*[16:14] Fax Celestis: Then Kaiser Brilliant only has to make an Imperial Decree stating that all previous Imperial Decrees are null and void. And then redecree them.[16:16] Bill7D0: But the undecreeable decree cannot be null and void.[16:16] Fax Celestis: Why not? It's not being undecreed. It just doesn't function anymore[16:17] Bill7D0: Then what if Kaiser Rediculous said otherwise in the Undecreeable Decree, stating that it cannot be made null and void?[16:18] Fax Celestis: Then Kaiser Brilliant only has to name himself a position other than Kaiser that still has the ability to edit Kaiserial Decree.[16:19] Bill7D0: What if the Undecreeable Decree states that such a position cannot be created?[16:20] Fax Celestis: Then the Landsraad could probably change the decree itself by vote. Should the Kaiser allow them to[16:21] Bill7D0: Isn't the Kaiser not allowed to edit the procedures and abilities of the Landsraad?[16:22] Fax Celestis: Okay, so they vote it in themselves, as per the Kaiser's proposed bill. In order to protect a decree indefinitely, you basically have to gimp the Kaisership into an ineffective job.[16:25] Bill7D0: Aha.[16:25] Fax Celestis: Your undecreeable decree would have to contain so many limitations on the Kaisership that it would basically make being Kaiser a useless figurehead. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink RegigoraaukEdited by: Fax Celestis  at: 11/7/05 17:40

[david northworthy beckfor]

He could also have some one else setup "Imperial Republic of Shirroth", and have the nation annexed, then rename the Shirroth to Shireroth If you feel an icy chill...the Conglacio is amongst you