This here is my crazy plan. Is it not nifty?

[Scott Alexander]

I did and still do agree to 2/3. It is more than fair.Besides, now that I'm obsessed with ambigrams (see Yardistan) I'm over my merger obsession and won't be too horribly distraught when it dies...anyway...back to trying ambigrams...whee!

[Gryphon Avocatio]

Greg: Your votes were going to be restricted anyway... -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas Give me your child, and by the age of five, I can make him a priest or a thief or a scholar. - SCOTT: You know, I always joke about how nothing will ever be able to get me out of micronations...but...I think if my mother got into micronations that would get me out in a hurry. - GUILDENSTERN:We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.

[Kaiser Mors III]

Nick.. we need to speak on that issue... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Phoenix the Risen]

Hrm... now that it seems you've semi-formally adopted my idea for a name... I am reconsidering... but not too much. I still hold firm in the issues I brought up... which still haven't been adressed... at least not here... la... Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Scott Alexander]

FINE! I'll respond! I think you'll agree that the imperative issue here is whether, with this merger, we will stay "us". If so, there is no problem - any minor things we've lost we will soon build up again and everyone will be much happier. If not, then anything we build up will no longer be Shirerithian and the true essence of Shireroth will be lost forever. Now, I've noticed you using symbolic logic in one or two of your posts, so I'll assume you've taken some philosophy, and rephrase the question: what are the accidental characteristics and what the essential characteristics of Shireroth as a nation?I would draw up the following list of essentials, which is a little different than yours:1. The Kaisera. Having absolute powerb. Usually being Erik2. The Feudal Systema. Landsraad system of votesb. Duchies and Baroniesc. Feudal Holdings Act3. Our Duchiesa. Names and identitiesb. Yardistanc. Dukes and Barons4. Crazinessa. The general way we actb. BO0O0/\/\ism5. Our Citizensa. Particularly the "natives", who have Shireroth as their first or only micronation6. Random Cultural Stuffa. Really ugly forumsb. Mangos, meese, kiwis, and other such7. Historical Trendsa. We like mergingb. We like annexing stuffc. We like blowing stuff upd. We are friendly to smaller nationse. We try to be honorableAs for one, I say we're keeping it. The two important aspects of Kaisership I put down are absoluteness and the fact that it will usually be held by Erik. Both of these will carry over. Yes, the name will be different. But as Phoenix the Risen, Gryphon the Pure, Draco the Tainted, Chimaera the Wise, and perhaps some more I haven't seen yet, you of all people ought to know that a rose by any other name, even "thorn-bearing deadly assault vegetation", would smell as sweet.As for two, I say we're keeping it. The Landsraad system is being quite completely preserved, except perhaps the name, which as I mentioned before is only an accidental quality. Three, yes. All of our Duchies are being preserved intact except Hyperborea, which will become a Barony and be intact anyway. With this minor exception, which oughtn't to trouble anyone except me and the other Hyperboreans, we will have our Duchies entirely the same as before.Four I say we can keep. If you've been to Treesia you know that they're quite good at craziness there; just ask [name edited out for bogus security reasons]. As for the BO0O/\/\, I don't think that it is as threatened by the OBC as you believe - to me, the B0O0/\/\ was never about necessarily going to war and hurting other people, it was more about a general committment to chaos and craziness. Both of which, I am sure you will agree, this merge is likely to provide en masseFive, we shouldn't lose any citizens in this unless people choose to leave, and I would like to think they would stay at least until the two month trial period is up so they can vote to dissolve it.Six, well, I'll admit we'll lose our ugly forums, although perhaps if we're lucky Iain will make a totally uncharacteristic blunder and mess up in his decorating instead of creating one of his usual masterpieces. But certainly we would keep Malarbor around in some capacity - perhaps on our coat of arms or something - we can't afford to offend the gods at the beginning of such a momentous venture. As for the mangos, kiwis, and other such bits, they would stay - one of them's in the very name of our pact, and if the Treesians don't want to keep the kiwi smily then they're not the tasteful sophisticated people we all know them to be.Seven - whether we continue these historical trends will be up to us. Historically, though, we have merged a lot - I count four and a half separate instances, out of all of which we have come bigger, better, and more culturally developed. Historically we have liked annexing stuff - and this is kind of like an annexation only different. As for blowing stuff up, being friendly to smaller nations, and being honorable - I anticipate us continuing to do all of these well past any potential merger - the Treesians do many of the same things.Shireroth has changed in the past. It has gone from a direct democracy to an imperial republic, from a constitution to a charter, from two Duchies to six Duchies, from totally online to mostly people from Erik's hometown to mostly Sonomans to a nice combination of all of them, from being ruled by a President to being ruled by a Kaiser to being ruled by the Landsraad to being ruled by the Kaiser again. Whatever the identity of Shireroth is, it is apparently a very resilient thing.And if all of a sudden it turns out we've become much weaker since then, we can choose to secede from FIRST after two months, as the pact states. Shireroth survived a year of merger in the Tymaria/Alexandros case - it can surely survive two months of it now. The only way this merger will be permanent is if everybody likes it. The WORST CASE SCENARIO is that we lose two months that we could have been doing something else, and now that we have our free Gold, time doesn't even cost us anything. Edited by: Scott Siskind  at: 1/23/04 1:01 pm

[Ari Rahikkala]

Just so that you know... my first post in this thread was written over a rather long time in a wide variety of mental contexts... in other words, it doesn't really even say what it seems to say... so... it's time for some clarification.I tried to define what Shireroth has that makes it unique and that would be irrevocably and unavoidably lost in a merger... and noticed (in the middle of writing that post) that I failed. There are many irrelevant and ephemeral sacrifices that have to be made in a merger, and the fact that this nation has been through more than zero mergers proves that they aren't as important as they're cracked up to be (*).I said that the entity that's called Shireroth will not continue existing. This is an interesting case of the kind of thinking that I'm sometimes guilty of. It's called "I'm so clever even I can't understand myself". Basically, after having seen a good bunch of failed mergers in micronational history, I've come to believe that when possible, a merger should terminate its member states' independence completely, lest they keep their loyalty to wherever they came from. Now, let's not discuss the validity of this hypothesis. What we're interested in is in how I conveniently injected it into my thoughts as a given and turned conclusions and premises around. Observe: If {Shireroth and Treesia are going to be merge}, {a merger is better if it's succesful}, and {a merger is more likely to be succesful if the existence of its member states is discontinued}, then... Shireroth's existence is going to be discontinued in a merger with Treesia!Now... I really like this merger. In fact, I support it almost fully. There's only one thing I'm going to make noise about...MALARBOR!Er... yeah, well, that was noise. Now I'll go do something... worthwhile... (*) Which reminds me that Shirerothian traditionalism is really a rather recent invention. Oh, true, the flag is old, the background is old, the colours are really old... but the government? That's changed... well, I can't even be bothered to count how many times it has changed. Just don't forget that this isn't Shireroth's first republic, or its second, or for that matter its sixth or anything before that. Or read Scott's latest post. I spend my days enjoying the minty taste that surrounds Erik.

[Gman Russell]

Scott: This is why I respect you... that post was... amazing...Nick: If you take away my votes on monday I'll leave yardistan and probably Shireroth... it's not a threat, just a warning. I don't care how much you say it's a privelege... i'm tired of walking over hot coals when I disagree with you.Ari: You're entirely correct... this traditionalism IS new... in fact, this whole "privilege" thing is also semi-new... when I left Shireroth the first time we didn't have ANY of those...

[Kaiser Mors III]

Traditionalism... can't be old.. cause.. if it was.. we'de have had no traditions.. to be.. well.. traditional about... follow?Ari is correct. If this merger is to suceed. both nations and their identity must be abolished. Else the merger will fail. If it fails we risk losing people, and time.. and ...stuff. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Ryan]

If you are abolishing identities then you won't mind me keeping Mar Sara and Lac Glacei, now will you? Useless art is simply tolerated vandalism. I am a vandal.

[Kaiser Mors III]

Anti-Merger Speach time!I've been argueing that if this merger goes forth, Shireroth will no longer exsist. And this holds true still.Yes, The merger WILL create a big assed nation with many useful aspects as a nation. But this nation will no longer be Shireroth, Nor Treesia. Sure, it'll have elements of both.But what makes Shireroth different from any other nation? Especcially other monarchies? Is it that we had a monarch with supreme power? That we have nobles? That we have a council of Dukes? There are certain things that make a nation a nation. We have these elements, we have a leader, we have ministers.. governors..ect..ect. So.. I guess that just makes us like any other nation. And that there will be no difference in this merger. We will still have the Monarch, the Council of Nobles, the Ministers.. the Governors(nobles)...ect..ect.. So what is it than? What is my point now?All these things of Shireroth the Pro-Merger folk say will live on.. our basic to any nation.. or monarchy. The only changes are names. Well.. What makes some nations different from others? Some times it is just as simple as a name. I'm not saying that is ALL we are.. names.. But... We will lose them. We lose the name Kaiser.. we will most likely lose the name Landsraad. We lose the Stewardship (proly). And highest of All.. We Lose the name Shireroth. If nothing else.. than that name has been CONSTANT through our entire History. NEVER have we lost that name. Even under Yardistani Control... we were Shireroth.. We still had the Kaisership. WE will lose the names. Which must stand for somethign, else we would be the same as so many other nations. But we do have more than our names, We have our culture(s). We have our history, we have our honor, our pride.. our collective similarities, our stories. We have our artwork.. (graphics).. and things that just.. make us.. us. The way we look.. and feel. What makes one person differnet from anyone else in a crowd.... often nothing... Which is sad. But sometimes.. it's just how they look, how they act. Makes them who they are. We'll lose all those... seemingly pointless parts of our nation, but sometimes it is the little things. (I don't think that came out at all like I wanted... oh well) Even the flag will be gone. The banner of our nation, that lets people see who we are in that crowd of nations, the symbol that has for so long been recognized as Shirerothian.If this merger happens, ALL traces of Shireroth MUST be removed. We can't exist anymore. We've seen enough mergers to know how to make them work (in thoery). You can't let nation keep their identities, or loyalty remains to the old nation, and the new nation fails. If this merger happens, Shireroth won't exsist, it can't. That simple. If it exsists, the merger will fail, so what is the point? If we want this merger to succeed.. It can't BE a merger. It must be a new nation forming.. and 2 nations disolving, that is the only way it can be done, if it is to work. Shireroth will disolve and it's people shall migrate to another land, taking with them ideas from the old nation. But not the old nation.With the disolving of Shireroth the name is gone, the Kaisership is gone.. ect..ect.And it is not just Shireroth, but Treesia who will be destroyed, a nation almost as old as Shireroth, and just as honorable. Do we really wish to see BOTH these great nations lost?Now I also know that there are proly those on both sides that figure that their nation will swallow up the other and in the end their nation will be what is left.. That the nation will become Treesia.. or become Shireroth? Both sides have people thinking this way. Is that really what we want? If that is why you support this, remember people on the other side will proly want the same thing. And in the end, that is what will happen, if national identities are kept especially, one side will try to swallow the other, most likely ending in Civil War. If this Merger is succeed. Shireroth must die.If Shireroth is to not Die, the Merger will fail.Nice little paradox aye?If you vote aye, which do you want, Shireroth to live? or die?If you want Shireroth to Die? You aren't fit to be in this nation and I ask you to leave.If you want Shireroth to Live? You shouldn't vote for this merger. That simple.Voting for this merger is voting to Kill the nation. And I hope you see that. Now! If you are counting on the 2 month option. Don't! In 2 months it'll be to late. Shireroth will be gone And won't be able to come back. If it isn't.. than nothing must have happened in those 2 months in the way of mergering. After two month of successful merger, there will be nothing to come back to. Shireroth will be gone, forgotten by the world at large. As it stands the transition from Shireroth to this new nation will be hard, just think about having to do it again, in reverse. And do you not think we'll lose people in the transition? Disgruntled people on both sides? I was approached by a non-Shirerothian who spoke to me of his fears that this merger will result in the loss of 2 good nations (though was mostly conserned for Treesia) and MANY good people, and I agree.So. Please, Vote NAY on this merger. Or, at the very Least Abstain. Do not Vote for the destruction of two good nations.Thank you. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Draco the Tainted]

Not to be anti-Kaiser or anything, but I got bored... Heil Loki!!!
Heil H'Graa!!!

[Kaiser Mors III]

There too is another reason not to merge.. hehe Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Gryphon Avocatio]

Well..if we were to use those colours *blech* -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas Give me your child, and by the age of five, I can make him a priest or a thief or a scholar. - SCOTT: You know, I always joke about how nothing will ever be able to get me out of micronations...but...I think if my mother got into micronations that would get me out in a hurry. - GUILDENSTERN:We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.

[Elder Barbarian]

GreetingsI have been called out of retirement to endorse this merger. Some of you may recall me from when I founded Barbaria over two years ago roughly. When I departed I left the nation to citizen Warvoid who wisely gifted it to Treesia. Just as I endorsed that merger now I see Treesia suffering and asking for this. So I will pledge my support to this merger and hope Shireroth will endorse it too.RespectsElder Barbarian Elder BarbarianElder of BarbariaVisit our website.

[Gryphon Avocatio]

we are currently in a bit of a struggle with warvoid...we don't like him much... -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas Give me your child, and by the age of five, I can make him a priest or a thief or a scholar. - SCOTT: You know, I always joke about how nothing will ever be able to get me out of micronations...but...I think if my mother got into micronations that would get me out in a hurry. - GUILDENSTERN:We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.

[Kaiser Mors III]

His name isn't well looked on right now.. or much of ever... He does nothing but try to cause us trouble.... He is on the verge of being declared a Terrorist by this state... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Gman Russell]

I still like him......*ducks*

[Emir of Raspur]

I like WV... Rakesh, you too?

[Scott Alexander]

Well, in case Elder Barbarian forgot why he left micronationalism, I guess he owes us a "thank you" for reminding him, eh?I like him. He's a good guy in his own crazy evil problematic sort of way.

[Gryphon Avocatio]

I'm sure he is...i think I can remember liking him...but he tried to railroad erik and I in tymaria...and I got a grudge...and he's outright insulted yardistan on multiple occaisions...not my favorite person... -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas Give me your child, and by the age of five, I can make him a priest or a thief or a scholar. - SCOTT: You know, I always joke about how nothing will ever be able to get me out of micronations...but...I think if my mother got into micronations that would get me out in a hurry. - GUILDENSTERN:We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.

[Kaiser Mors III]

He's caused me nothing but trouble and land disputes....Though I like him outside Micronations... good guy.. but in micronations I hate his guts... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Gryphon Avocatio]

I'm sure as with most people he is a wonderful guy outside of micronations...much as i quite like people with differing political views IRL...but he is a problem here... -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas Give me your child, and by the age of five, I can make him a priest or a thief or a scholar. - SCOTT: You know, I always joke about how nothing will ever be able to get me out of micronations...but...I think if my mother got into micronations that would get me out in a hurry. - GUILDENSTERN:We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.

[Kaiser Mors III]

I still want to Ban him Here... and Kick him out of the MCS.. But he kinda holds it hostage with the fact people don't like me outside of Shireroth.. (if even here...) So dah.. they support him.. don't care what about.. just because it's him... Which Is why I like being isolationalist... Than again.. I didn't used to be.. and people seemed to like me.. but now I just get made fun or or hated when I go outside this nation... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth