This here is my crazy plan. Is it not nifty?

[Kaiser Mors III]

Exactly.. If only I could be that good a speach giver..hehe Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Gman Russell]

How would be too late to change back after the merger's 2 months?

[Zirandorthel]

Because they'll have started to like it, and might have to succumb to the awful daemon of CHANGE!! Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'Taras

[Scott Alexander]

Quote:1) The nation of Shireroth is entirely stable as it is. The Feudal Holdings Act was created not with the intent of forcing duchies to conform to certain population restrictions, but instead to prevent the creation of extraneous duchies and baronies.As the person who wrote the first Feudal Holdings Act, I regard myself as something of an expert in what it meant. While preventing the formation of extraneous Duchies and Baronies was indeed a large part of it, it was also supposed to allow currently existing Duchies and Baronies to grow to a size where there could be meaningful interaction within them and where not everyone in the nation would be a noble. I'm certain you'll agree that having higher population Duchies is a good thing.Quote:2) What keeps us from copying their system without merging into one nation? I'm, just curious. Also, how do we know people aren't joining Treesia because they like Treesia better than us? Or is it just more well known or better advertised?A number of things prevent us from copying the Treesian economy without merging, not least of which is our total absence of a Minister of Trade. Running an economy on their scale takes a lot of work and a lot of economy savvy. dStryker certainly could have done it, but he's no longer around. But the Treesians have Sir Iain de Vembria, who I believe works in an economics-related job in real life and who manages the dStrykeresque stuff that would turn the brains of mere mortals to Silly Putty. We could ask him politely to do twice as much work crunching the numbers for a nation that doesn't want anything to do with him, but despite his well-known generousity I wouldn't be too optimistic that would work. As for Treesia's getting new citizens, I think that's exactly it - they are better known and better advertised. If someone in Shireroth thinks they can do a similarly good advertising job, then that's great, but why haven't they tried it the last two years? And as for people just liking Treesia better than us - why, you should be ashamed of yourself, Nick, that's crazytalk.Quote:3) We've never been an extremely...how should I put this...we've been, at least since I have been here, more of a solitary nation with a few close allies. As for you scott being the only person working foreign affairs, nothing has ever stopped you from recruiting an assistant.No, nothing has, and I attempted to do exactly that, with the predictable result of no one having responded to my recruitment in two efforts spanning almost a year. Personally, I believe foreign affairs is an important added dimension to micronationalism and that it could vastly raise the interestingness, not to mention that it is tied in to such important things as the military, the intelligence, the economy, and the immigration. But people here don't seem to have much interest, possibly because they've never been exposed to the outside world. Isolationism doesn't work in the macronational world and I believe it to be a very short-sighted policy here too.Quote:4) As far as the military goes, i have one quote from Mr. Erik Metzler that sums up my feelings: "War is obsolete." As far as intelligence, well...i don't really know much about that sort of that thing (honestly, i don't), but I can understand the advantages here.And I have one quote from Mr. Leon Trotsky: "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you." We can be the most peaceful and isolationist country in the world, but that's not going to stop some imperialist foreign power from trying to take us over if they so desire. Cranda found that out last week, and while we can say "Phew! Glad it was them and not us" for a while, eventually we have to start considering a plan of action. The Ministry of the Exterior's such plan is twofold - first, use the Olive Branch Treaty to create a community of peaceful nations to support nonviolent conflict resolution, and second, to strengthen our power and influence to the point where no one can harm us with impunity. The first is a step in the right direction, but it's not enough - expecting an enemy not to attack just because you're peaceful is like expecting a bull not to charge just because you're a vegetarian.Quote:5) That just sounds to me like the classic, "Everybody else is doing it, why don't we." That's never a legitimate reason to do anything.On the contrary. I'm not saying we should do this to follow the hip trend in micronationalism, I'm saying we should do this because the actions of other countries affect us. Let's say Slobovia, Cranda, and Norworthy merge into Arminia and Hanover and Pendronia merge into Hano-Pendronia as scheduled. It would not behoove us to be the only smallish country still around at that time. As the European countries learned in the Age of Imperialism, if your competitors are getting stronger, you had better get stronger too or lose your influence or perhaps your very existence.[/quote]Quote:Shireroth tends to be different and we have historically been successful in our endeavorsTruth, and we will be successful in this one.Quote:6) Shireroth was not founded as a nation dedicated to the Gods. In fact, the gods are a recent fabrication.I am pretty sure that Erik and Lukedu were chanting HAIL LOKI! way back in the Seventh Republic and before. Quote: We don't need more terretory on the MCS--that's nothing of import. You tlak about making Shireroth greater, but in reality a merger of this sort would undermine the accomplishments we've already done by esentially disolving the nation into another. We wouldn't be "skyrocketing Shireroth's power," we would be skyrocketing some other yet-to-be nations power.[/quote]What is Shireroth? Is Shireroth just a name? A flag? A forum with a glaring tree on the back? NO! Shireroth is its people, its government, and its Kaiser. This new nation will have all the people of Shireroth, all the government of Shireroth, and be ruled by the Kaiser of Shireroth. Far from undermining the accomplishments of the present, we will be using them as a foundation upon which to build the accomplishments of the future. Accomplishments are not there to sit in a history book under the caption "And here is an accomplishment which the people of Shireroth made in 2004." They are there as rungs on the ladder to bigger and better things, and this union with Treesia is the next rung up.

[Ari Rahikkala]

For some reason I feel incredibly bad about the idea of trying to write a long post here, and since everything I've wanted to say in this thread has been rather complex, I haven't yet been able to say anything...Most of the reasons for this merger that spring from the current state of micronations around Shireroth can be safely ignored. After all, Shireroth can usually basically ignore strange events around it anyway... this alone is enough to counter Scott's points 4, 5 and kinda also 3.--Now, the reason why I initially thought I would oppose this merger is that, in a way, Shireroth would lose more in this merger than Treesia. You see, Treesia's culture, religion and everything can be carried over to a new nation with relatively little trouble. Oh, sure, they would lose a lot, but they wouldn't lose the things that make their nation unique. Shireroth... Shireroth, on the other hand, is defined not by insanity or Cedrism or even traditionalism but rather... well, being Shireroth, or by having been Shireroth for... a long time indeed!After hitting that snag, however, I noticed that it's actually not so much of a problem as an opportunity. See, I don't like vague circular definitions. I'd much rather spend my time in a micronation whose citizens know what makes it great right now. Although I'm still quite attached to Shireroth, it's not a personal creation of mine and I wouldn't really mind throwing it around a bit just to see what it ends up as. The entity that's currently called Shireroth wouldn't continue existing, not even by some other name... but... maybe, in the end, it doesn't really need to. Death, after all, is nothing but the beginning of new life... I spend my days enjoying the minty taste that surrounds Erik.

[Rakesh86]

Quote:.... but that's not going to stop some imperialist foreign power from trying to take us over if they so desire. Cranda found that out last week, and while we can say "Phew! Glad it was them and not us" for a while, eventually we have to start considering a plan of action ...Careful Scott ... we are allies despite what Bahram says.

[Gryphon Avocatio]

I am particularly pressed for time, but there are some points I want to bring up:"I'm certain you'll agree that having higher population Duchies is a good thing." - Oh, I do agree. But a merger would not change the population of the Shirerothian duchies. It will simply increase the number of duchies."We can be the most peaceful and isolationist country in the world, but that's not going to stop some imperialist foreign power from trying to take us over if they so desire" - And how are they going to take us over? You know the hell that is ezBoard. Short of getting hold of administrative abilities, it's pretty damn hard to take over a nation."But people here don't seem to have much interest [in foreign affairs]" - Truth. I think that says it all."As the European countries learned in the Age of Imperialism, if your competitors are getting stronger, you had better get stronger too or lose your influence or perhaps your very existence." - So, you are saying that we should merge on our own will rather than wait and be forced to merge (which is what i take from your loss of existance part)? And if we do merge in the proposed way, we would loose our "very existence" anyway."This new nation will have all the people of Shireroth, all the government of Shireroth, and be ruled by the Kaiser of Shireroth. Far from undermining the accomplishments of the present, we will be using them as a foundation upon which to build the accomplishments of the future" - But it won't be Shireroth. It won't be ruled by the Kaiser, it will be ruled by the Ard Ri. The merger requires the dissolution of both nations, and I do not believe that that is in either's best intrest, though I have no say over the interests of Treesia."...Nick, that's crazytalk." Oh, and weren't you the one that added "Raving Lunatic" to my title? -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas Give me your child, and by the age of five, I can make him a priest or a thief or a scholar. - SCOTT: You know, I always joke about how nothing will ever be able to get me out of micronations...but...I think if my mother got into micronations that would get me out in a hurry. - GUILDENSTERN:We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.

[Scott Alexander]

Quote:Careful Scott ... we are allies despite what Bahram says.Eh? Are you denying that you're imperialist? (note that you have an empire, so this would be rather difficult) Or foreign? (just because it seems like we share half our citizens sometimes doesn't make you nonforeign) Or powerful? (especially now that you have more posts per day than we) I'll have you know that I edited that from "evil imperialist foreign power" for that very reason.Quote:"I'm certain you'll agree that having higher population Duchies is a good thing." - Oh, I do agree. But a merger would not change the population of the Shirerothian duchies. It will simply increase the number of duchies.Incorrect. I think I mentioned that due to some vote-equalization stuff I will be disbanding Hyperborea and redistributing its population through the other Shirerithian Duchies if the merger goes through.Quote:And how are they going to take us over? You know the hell that is ezBoard. Short of getting hold of administrative abilities, it's pretty damn hard to take over a nation.We know the Atterans have the capability - were you around for their temporary destruction of Cranda? And I'll bet the Babkhans have whatever they were using, and I don't even want to KNOW what Sander's got.Quote:So, you are saying that we should merge on our own will rather than wait and be forced to merge (which is what i take from your loss of existance part)? And if we do merge in the proposed way, we would loose our "very existence" anyway.Not necessarily be forced to merge, but be forced into situations that are very undesirable to us - being forced to grant concessions or cede territory. And if you think a name change and getting a few new citizens is losing our existence, then we've already lost our existence far more often than that - every time the population composition changed, when we changed our name to Yardistan back in the day, etc.Quote:But it won't be Shireroth. It won't be ruled by the Kaiser, it will be ruled by the Ard Ri. The merger requires the dissolution of both nations, and I do not believe that that is in either's best intrest, though I have no say over the interests of Treesia.I'm sorry to have used all of these historical references in conversations with you; after all, you're a relative newbie. Sure, Nick the Yardistani was around a long time ago, but this is Gryphon Avocatio, so since he has a different name he must be a different person. It's too bad Nick the Yardistani died - send a card to his family if you see them around.Okay, enough sarcasm. My point is that it's not the NAME Kaiser that's important, it's the institution of the Kaisership and the occupation of said institution by Erik Metzler, both of which we will carry over. It's not the NAME Shireroth that's important, it's that essence of being Shirerithian that has continued through Shireroth, Yardistan, Tymaria, and elsewhere, in the same way that your Nick-the-Yardistaniness has continued on through all your different account names. This is Nick the Yardistani getting a third arm grafted onto his body and THEN changing his name to Gryphon Avocatio, an addition of certain parts and then a name change of certain parts.Now, as you can see from the rapid deterioration in the quality of my metaphors, I have been working way too long and hard on this. I believe this will be my last post on the subject for a while until maybe the eve of the vote, and then people will just have to decide for themselves. Edited by: Scott Siskind  at: 1/21/04 3:06 pm

[Kaiser Mors III]

About something Nick said... about there not being a Kaiser but an Ard Ri. The Title of Kaiser wouldn't exsist.. or are you refering to ME? (not to be egocentric).. Me as the Kaiser.. and what about when I'm not Kaiser? YOu know the Treesians will want me to step (not that I proly wouldn't want the break) down within a month or so. so Someone else can be leader. Than the Kaiser wouldn't exsist now would it? And I would have no way to take back my throne later.. cause it wouldn't be my throne anymore.. it would NOT be the Throne of Shireroth. Cause it woulnd't be Shireroth. Am I making sense? Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Scott Alexander]

The title of Kaiser might still exist but only as a subtitle of the Ard Ri (like "Ard Ri Erik, Kaiser of Shireroth and Emperor of Treesia"). You personally would also continue to exist unless you wander into a disintegrator for some reason. I doubt the Treesians will want you to step down as soon as you seem to think - during the negotiations phase Eoin said that he had absolutely no desire to be leader, and Iain usually prefers to work behind the scenes, so I don't think they have a Treesian candidate for your throne ready even if they wanted one.

[Kaiser Mors III]

And if I stepped down of my own Accord? Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Sir Iain de Vembria]

Apparently your existing system for Governmenrt and Leadership would remain, so whatever would happen normally in that instance would still happen... His Excellency the Grand Chancellor of the United Baronies

[Kaiser Mors III]

Doesn't that bother you Treesians? Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[JDeane]

It bothers me...Quote:so I don't think they have a Treesian candidate for your throne ready even if they wanted one. And I take offense at that statement... Sun Bless, Earth KeepEdited by: JDeane at: 1/21/04 4:30 pm

[Scott Alexander]

Re: Erik, I think the Pact says Eoin is your successor in that case, although I think he would like to succeed you later rather than sooner.Jarrett: Really? Why? Who do you see as a willing candidate for the throne? Edited by: Scott Siskind  at: 1/21/04 5:13 pm

[BMajeed]

Merger...hmm...I guess that would be fine. · Babkhan Citizen· Atabek-e Azam of Kumarastan· Commander-in-Chief of the KDF· Squire of the Barony of Elwynn· Knight of the Order of the Dead Stagg in the Barony of ElwynnAll hail Ardashir Khan!Edited by: BMajeed at: 1/21/04 5:24 pm

[Conrad Cromien]

Awhile back in this thread Scott speculated whether the community likes Treesia better. Well generally we do. And i really really hope that Treesia doesnt get eaten if this goes through, because I will be one angry guy. I'm all for the Slobovia/Cranda/Northworthy merger, and the Hanover/Pendronia merger. t But y there m is a something r not i right a about this merger. I dunno, It seems rather politically charged, in that its not a merger because Treesia and Shiroth get along so well, Scott even said get stronger because your rivals are. Now is that a valid reason for a merger? I dont see Shireroth having any rivals at all. Is there anyone directly threatening Shirothe? no. You know Shireroth not too long ago was at the top for the fucking precious/pathetic right of "highest post count", But Babkha did not merge with another nation just because of it. Anyways, thats my take.

[JDeane]

Quote:Jarrett: Really? Why? Who do you see as a willing candidate for the throne? Nobody would turn it down Scott. I just think that you are under-estimating Treesian and I don't like it. Sun Bless, Earth Keep

[Kaiser Mors III]

Wow.. I got people who aren't even Shirerithian on my side... (after a fashion....kinda..).I'm almost starting to sense hostilities come out due to this merger. I've been seriously been considering not even letting this go to vote and just vetoing outright. I keep seeing conflict and crap that would just spill over into the new nation.. and keep seeing my fears kinda being.. well...backed up by words and actions of people... (Yes, I'm being a bit vague.. I for some reason can't remember my reasons for my oppinion.. though I know I have them... Don't you hate that?) Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[SaiKar LumEth]

Yeah, but you also have them as opponents too, since some support the merger. But at this point, you pretty much have to let it go to vote. Votes are, by defintion, a way of settling an issue. If you just shoot it down with Kaiser powers, you will end the idea but not settle the issue, and there will probably be all sorts of bitterness.Monday, 2/3 majority to pass, and you have the entire world watching now. I know I will be among them.

[Kaiser Mors III]

I am quite aware of that.. which is why I don't really wanna use my Veto.. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Scott Alexander]

Quote:Nobody would turn it down Scott. I just think that you are under-estimating Treesian and I don't like it.On the contrary. I was a Treesian myself for about two years and I still think they're absolutely great people. If I didn't like or respect the Treesians, I certainly wouldn't be trying to merge with them, would I? But in fact, Eoin has already told me that he *would* turn down the throne if it were offered to him as part of the beginning merger, although he doesn't seem averse to being the successor and ruling after everything's all settled should he be called on to do so. If I am wrong, then by all means he or whoever else wants the throne should tell me, and we can have another issue to discuss, although to be fair I doubt we can change that point at this time without massive amounts of pain.

[Phoenix the Risen]

>>1. Which merger plan do you support – gradual or fast?If any, the gradual.>>2. Do you have any good suggestions for the name of a unified country?FIRST - Feudal Imperial Republic of Shireroth and Treesia>>3. Do you have any issues with, objections to, or comments on either of the plans?Basically everything that Nick and Ari said...>>Oh, sure, they would lose a lot, but they wouldn't lose the things that make their nation unique. Shireroth... Shireroth, on the other hand, is defined not by insanity or Cedrism or even traditionalism but rather... well, being Shireroth, or by having been Shireroth for... a long time indeed!AMEN, BROTHA! Take a look at it - - Shireroth truly is more a community of friends than a nation. Our cultural history consists of stories of the dead nations we've annexed and of horrible or insane Kaisers. Our actual running legacy only holds a few things:1) Our name: Shireroth, Republic of Shireroth, Imperial Republic of Shireroth, IRS2) The Kaiser. Our Kaiser. Erik. Mortis Mercator. UEC. Owner, President, Duke, Polemarch, Kaiser.3) Our flag.4) Malarbor and his horrible forum colours.5) Yardistan.6) The B0O0O0/\/\!!!7) Having survived for a long-assed time. Same ol', same ol'.This proposal threatens to remove items 1, 2, 3, and 4.Item 1 simply by virtue that it is a Merger rather than an Annexation.Item 2 because Ard-Ri just sounds absolutely nothing like Kaiser, and by denying the Kaiser the power to choose his own name, you're destroy the essence of the Kaisership itself.Item 3 is again by virtue of the merger.Item 4 is because of the proposed new board, which as I have been informed will only host Malarbor and his HFC's over several peoples' dead bodies blanketed by broken treaties.Item 5 is eternal, and can never be removed.Item 6 is being removed already by the Olive Branch Community.Item 7 is not entirely true. I will elaborate later.In short, we are being left with only Yardistan as our legacy... and considering that Yardistan is the OT, that's not much of a legacy to be keeping. This merger -will- hit Shireroth more than Treesia. Maybe not in magnitude, but in percentage loss.>>And how are they going to take us over? You know the hell that is ezBoard. Short of getting hold of administrative abilities, it's pretty damn hard to take over a nation. We know the Atterans have the capability - were you around for their temporary destruction of Cranda? And I'll bet the Babkhans have whatever they were using, and I don't even want to KNOW what Sander's got.Scott: it takes less to destroy a nation than to take it over.Nick: haha... hahaha... HaHaHa... MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!In short, I propose we annex Treesia, and get it over with Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Gman Russell]

I remember making the statement earlier that because Erik and Nick didn't support this bill that it would fail.Ahhhhhhh it's nice to see my predictions coming true...BUT HEAR ME! I don't care WHO opposes this bill! Whether it's Erik, or Nick, OR Joseph! I WILL vote Yay when the time comes and go down in a blaze of anti-establishment glory!

[Kaiser Mors III]

If you are just voting to be different.. than I question your loyalties.... Cause that is a really bad reason to vote... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Gman Russell]

Just to be different? No... I sway towards Yea because I think it would be a step in the right direction... I just said anti-establishment because it sounds more incendiary. But seriously, I think voting nay is a mistake... you'll be voting against a serious oppurtunity!Bah... i'll probably just abstain... i'm slightly disgusted by this whole thing...

[Kaiser Mors III]

I see... Yes.. an oppertunity to make a bigger nation.. but it wouldn't be Shireroth.. Which is the arguement.. (one of them)... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

[Rakesh86]

With Monday quickly approaching - it is necessary that we look at the dynamics of the Landsraad. If my political analysis is correct, the chances of this passing with a 2/3rds majority is very slim considering the strength of opposition and people who want to abstain.

[Scott Alexander]

You speak truth. Oh well. I was hoping Gryphon would support it, but since he doesn't, we're pretty much doomed.

[Kaiser Mors III]

You agreed to 2/3rds.. I think it's fair.. this is to big a disision to leave to 50%+1.... and 3/4 would be unfair... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth