Imperial Proclaimation MVI 2: On my heir.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

I will not be naming an heir to succeed me. Instead I will rely on the "Line of Succession" to work things out once I am no longer Kaiser. As this would pass the throne back to House Mortis, I will point out that House Mortis will not be accepting the throne. Which would then pass it down to the House with the Stewardship, House Kalir.

I'm honestly thinking of removing the provision that would pass the throne to the House of the steward, in favor of letting the provisions below that take care of things, though this would I believe once again result in the Kaisership passing to Kalir as they have the most members, even without Mortis joining them.

I feel that it would serve Shireroth best, now and in the future, to let the Line of Succession deal with the Kaisership instead of using the system of naming heirs. This would give more incentive to houses to grow in size and power, as it could gain them the throne. I think future Kaiser's should forgo the Heir System in favor of the Line of Succession, to help ensure the throne goes to active and ambitious houses/individuals.

In fact, I WILL change the rules of succession so the Steward's house is not in the list. And would like input on the fact the house of the Kaiser is at the top of the list.

[Malliki Tosha]

I completely disagree with this. If I would be Kaiser again, I would very much like to decide to what person I pass the throne. Perhaps you should consult people before making changes.

This would also mean that the Kaisership would stay within Kalir for a very long time, since I see no sign of any kind that Tosha-Straylight or Kildare would grow larger than Kalir.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Then if you become Kaiser, you can pick an heir. I rather let this system choose my heir. As I said, it'll give an incentive for other houses to grow.

[Malliki Tosha]

This will break the system. This will mean that the only viable way to power is to join Kalir in one way or another. Doesn't the whole point of the House system disappear if everyone is in Kalir?

[Kaiser Mors VI]

This system was in place weeks ago... And you're just now complaining?

Anyways, I'm still tweaking.

[Jonas]

Simply: no. This will lead to a constant hegemony of one house, and eventually to an influx to the mightiest House (why building our own House to get Kaisership if we can simply join the others?).
Besides, you will get a lot of friction if you do it via such a system. On the other hands, this is maybe a way to destroy the House system... not something you want (and something I currently don't care about).

[Kaiser Mors VI]

I want friction.

Actually, this has already in theory led to the creation of a new united Major house made of all the smaller houses. I see that as a win. For all. And it's good to not have a lot of small pointless little houses. So I see your arguments as good things.

[Jonas]

I want friction.

Actually, this has already in theory led to the creation of a new united Major house made of all the smaller houses. I see that as a win. For all. And it's good to not have a lot of small pointless little houses. So I see your arguments as good things.

This theory hasn't led to anything and I don't like the idea of letting the Houses in charge. It smells as political parties and I don't want that here. For Kaisership you shouldn't look to the Houses but to the person. Otherwise you create a feeling that you are ruled by a House. For example: I would love to see Scott (just taking an example) on the Throne, but I'm not sure I can be loyal to him if he's appointed by a House (which gives me the feeling that we have a State within the State).

[Scott of Hyperborea]

This would make it pretty easy to become a democracy. Let's say I want to be Kaiser. I form the "Scott for Kaiser" campaign, make a platform, and tell everyone who agrees with me to join House Scott. If you disagree with me, you have to form House Erik and try to convince people to join your House by explaining why you'd make a better Kaiser. At some point we might as well ditch the term "join the house of" and just call it "vote for".

It also brings back all that annoying democratic stuff we don't have to deal with. Does an inactive citizen in a house count toward their total (for example, would Nick the Yardistani? How about LoA_Jacobus? How about those Dutch people who joined Kildare a while back and then never posted again?). If not, what are the chances we get a lot of inactive citizens "suddenly" becoming active around election (sorry, "succession") time. How about people convincing foreigners to temporarily join Shireroth just so they can be in their house? What about foreign spies trying to influence elections (sorry, "successions")?

I have a relatively elegant solution to this problem I'll tell you in the chat tonight, or here if you prefer, though you can probably predict what it is.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

The census helps deal with inactive citizens. And we could always bring back the Minority period for purposes of determining if new citizens count for succession counts.

[Jonas]

The census helps deal with inactive citizens. And we could always bring back the Minority period for purposes of determining if new citizens count for succession counts.

No, the census doesn't deal with that. Inactive citizens will come back when they know that their is a census. OR, the Head od the House will tell to his citizens to fill in the census.

You're ruining a working and good system with this.

[Malliki Tosha]

I agree that this system is broken, but it will stay in place for at least as long as Erik is Kaiser. This is, just like Scott says, glorified party politics.

[Harvey Steffke]

Counting citizens as active or inactive is something we've never been good at, even a decade later. We have no quantitative way of defining it, nobody to do the daily work it would take to maintain the analysis, and no system robust enough to survive someone making one post a month that says "BACK!" and being declared active again.

I fully agree with any Kaiser's desire to handle succession in any way they choose, but I don't think this is a very good change for a stable long-term future. Choosing their heir is one of the most controversial things about this country as well as one of its unique facets. Throwing that way in order to strengthen the house system to make it more popular seems unwise.

[Andreas the Wise]

Oh, come on, do none of you have loyalties to your (ex) Duchy anymore? It's just happened that Erik put this system in at a time Straylight and Yardistan decided to go boring, and the Kildarians decided to focus on Nelaga. Erik, if you've read some of my recent comments as saying I don't like the system, I'm sorry. I was just trying to say that it's a pity you instituted it when I'm focussing my attention elsewhere; and nobody but Kalir is doing anything.

You know what Jonas? Meh to merging with other houses. Kildare is Kildare, and we will be mighty by our own hand, or none. If they would like to be adopted into Kildare, they may. But why should Kildare merge with those who have no Audente blood? There's a reason we're off separate from the rest of Shireroth's land, remember

[Malliki Tosha]

This would not be a merger. It would be a confederation.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Right..... I actaully gave this some thought while bored at work..

1. Proclamations are just fancy speeches, they have no power.
2. Read DB: II. B. 1.

Since I'm sure no one has bothered to read the entire law on this matter...

1: Heir

a. If the former Kaiser has appointed an heir, either by decree or by an unequivocal statement of intent, the throne passes to that heir.

ie. The "old system" is still THE system. Section 2. is technically the "backup" system for when no Heir is assigned. I intend to use the backup system because it amuses me. Due to the comments here, I assume no other Kaiser after me will use this system. So be it. I haven't changed anything in stone. I just created an alternative system to help deal with an occasionally annoying situation. I took the concrete list of named persons that was always out of date and put a generic system in place. I hoped this would create some incentive for houses to grab for power and people. I guess people rather bitch and moan because they don't feel their sense of Entitlement is being satiated.

I wish people would actually read the laws. They are there on the Wiki. http://shireroth.org/shirewiki/Decreebo ... the_Throne There.. made it easy for you.

Yes, it is kinda like parties. But it's kinda hard to avoid them in Micronations. Duchies were just static parties.

So yeah, nothing has actually been changed. I didn't just create some new system. It's been there since the beginning of my reign, and its predecessor has been there for years. Happier now?

[Malliki Tosha]

I just want to know in what way a party system is legal or wanted in Shireroth?

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Didn't I remove that law banning them a while ago?

And wanted, they create activity, friction, politics. It's just a matter of keeping them under control. Our Autocracy means we don't have any pesky rights to deal with if one got out of control. We could just make it go away. Disband it. That would be sure to make a raucous.

[Malliki Tosha]

I don't agree with you removing that either. And I think that this system leads to more bad things than good, but I won't attempt to persuade you.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Something I proposed to Malliki, and I'll propose it to you too so you can join him in rejecting it:

A karma system would turn this very precarious democracy into a much stronger meritocracy. Right now, all someone has to do to give their House a bunch of power is post "I ATEN'T DEAD" on the census once every few months, at which point they will be officially Active and, in the eyes of the law, as important to determining the Kaisership as Malliki or Erik or other people who are actually important. See Harvey's post above.

In a karma system, people would upvote people who do things they like, and downvote people who do things they don't. It would be a lot like the bounty system, except that instead of Andreas doing it, it would be a very automatic Web 2.0 version merging the judgment of all Shirerithians. While Malliki correctly pointed out that there's a potential for abuse, it's worked very well on the forums I've seen it used on, and along with solving this particular problem it makes posting more interesting and keeps new people around.

So instead of putting the House with the most people in charge, we put the House with the most people with the most karma in charge. If House A has two very important long time citizens who do lots of work and have 500 karma, and House B has three people who only post every so often and have 100 karma, then 1000 > 300 and House A gets the Kaisership.

This would be in keeping with Shirerithian traditions of nobility and ascension by merit somewhat more than simple "whoever gets the most warm bodies wins" logic.

[Malliki Tosha]

This is democracy and will at least lead to one rebellion if implemented.

There, I said it.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

The second I saw the word Karma I stopped reading... However, maybe an arbitrary number of posts in the last census period would let a person be counted as Active. (Filling the census would just maintain your citizenship).

But like I said Mike, I doubt this system will be used after my reign, so I wouldn't be to upset. Considering the rabid anti-democracy bent we have as a nation, I don't see parties as likely at this time.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

The second I saw the word Karma I stopped reading...

I don't expect you to accept or agree with my ideas, but I expect you to at least read them, especially when I'm torn on whether to support you or not.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

I was being sarcastic.. sorry.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Sorry then. Understood.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

No, your fault. Long day at work. Tired, all that.

I don't think the Karma system will work. That sounds to much like an Economy of Sorts.

[Gman Russell]

Houses... changing the line of sucession... changing the flag...


*ahem*


"You're breaking my heart, Anakin!"

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Hey... I didn't change the flag... and succession hasn't changed. Kaiser's can and will still appoint heirs.. I just made a better backup system.

[Gman Russell]

You didn't change the flag, but you aren't using your limitless power to change it back either. ABUSE THY POWER!

[Kaiser Mors VI]

I promised I wouldn't. I've learned not to abuse the Kaisership....