The SCUE and its interaction with non-members

[Kaiser Malarbor I]

Bjorn of Victoria had been asking for a good while before he got an answer from the SC about exactly why the SCUE does not support transactions with non-members.

Done reading the linked thread? Good . So here's a couple of question for folks to consider:

- Should the SCUE bank administrator have the power to add to the bank database nations that haven't actually signed the SCUE? I'm especially interested in Erik's answer to this question - I seem to recall that he mentioned not being sure this is a good idea, but I don't recall him elaborating on that.
- Are there nations around that would be willing to participate in the SCUE, but do not want to sign a treaty of membership with the SC? I'm mostly looking at Antica and Victoria here. Would you accept a loan (likely on excellent credit terms) from a SCUE member nation, bank, credit union etc. to have the money to run your internal economy and to be able to participate in the SCUE?
- Are there people or nations around who are SCUE members, but who aren't currently having a lot of economic activity? Could you be convinced to grant credit to a nation that wants to participate in the economy?

Remember, if you read the linked thread, there isn't really much difference in economical terms between voting a nation into the SCUE, or actually directly granting it credit. Well, the former's probably slightly inflationary while the latter is clearly deflationary (*), and I don't expect a lot of nations to be willing to borrow out that much money, so there might end up being a price imbalance where you can get the same services for cheaper in a non-member nation than a member nation. But, in general terms, *points at Antica, Victoria, etc.* you shouldn't be afraid of the word "credit", because credit is what you would be getting anyway, even as an actual SCUE member.

(*) I'm assuming that loans in the SCUE bank are full-reserve, i.e. implemented such that when you grant someone a loan, money in the amount of the loan leaves your bank account and enters theirs.

[Kaiser Malarbor I]

(... and that's not to say that my proposal of loans to non-members is the only possibility to include them in the economy, of course. Let's hear your ideas!)

[Dr Bjorn Olsen]

Would you accept a loan (likely on excellent credit terms) from a SCUE member nation, bank, credit union etc. to have the money to run your internal economy and to be able to participate in the SCUE?

I cannot see why we wouldn't. We are already doing a lot of work and have done work for other micronations that would allow us to clear any national debts we would obtain by starting out with a Loan.

[Jonas]

I cannot see why we wouldn't. We are already doing a lot of work and have done work for other micronations that would allow us to clear any national debts we would obtain by starting out with a Loan.

But it's in the disadvantage of those who get the money. They will have to pay the loan back eventually and will have less money. Next to that, they don't have a say about how things are handled and wouldn't earn an own division at the bank.
I'm not very kind in letting non-members join. And if they do, they will have to register their bank accounts in a member nation.

[Dr Bjorn Olsen]

I cannot see why we wouldn't. We are already doing a lot of work and have done work for other micronations that would allow us to clear any national debts we would obtain by starting out with a Loan.

But it's in the disadvantage of those who get the money. They will have to pay the loan back eventually and will have less money. Next to that, they don't have a say about how things are handled and wouldn't earn an own division at the bank.
I'm not very kind in letting non-members join. And if they do, they will have to register their bank accounts in a member nation.

What do you mean register their bank accounts in a member nation? That, we would not be happy with.

Also Jonas you keep asking me how do you pay me for the services Victoria are currently working on for you, well surely this would be a way no?

[Jonas]

What do you mean register their bank accounts in a member nation? That, we would not be happy with.

If Victorians / Anticans /... want to participate without becoming member, they don't get their own 'bank part'. Your citizens should register their accounts in Batavia, Shireroth, Gralus or an other member nation. That sounds logical to me.

Also Jonas you keep asking me how do you pay me for the services Victoria are currently working on for you, well surely this would be a way no?

Yes, if you had your account in, let us say, Batavia or an other member nation. That said, if you want the money to become Victorian, the nation should join the SC. And I would happily pay.

The SCUE is one of the most important parts of the SC. I don't see any reason why non-members would get the advantages while not becoming member (while joining and signing the treaty doesn't influence much and surely isn't endangering your independence).

[Dr Bjorn Olsen]

If Victorians / Anticans /... want to participate without becoming member, they don't get their own 'bank part'. Your citizens should register their accounts in Batavia, Shireroth, Gralus or an other member nation. That sounds logical to me.

Well I'm going to go out on a limb here and say That would never be acceptable to Victoria.

Yes, if you had your account in, let us say, Batavia or an other member nation.

You forget you can already pay us in Victoria, especially seeing as you just won £10k in our National Lottery

and surely isn't endangering your independence.

I for one don't believe it would either, but Victoria is a democracy and I come on behalf of my Government not myself. If they decide to join, great. If they don't that's ok too.

I don't really have any interest in being told constantly that we should join, join, join now, join, whats stopping you? I'm here for the summit, not a recruitment show. The decision in Victoria joining is not down to me, so it would be a waste of both our time to keep giving me that line either here or in Victoria as you do.

[Jonas]

Well I'm going to go out on a limb here and say That would never be acceptable to Victoria.

Wouldn't be very handy either.

You forget you can already pay us in Victoria, especially seeing as you just won £10k in our National Lottery

Yeah, but we were talking about the SCUE. And I wouldn't mind to buy something via the SCUE.

I for one don't believe it would either, but Victoria is a democracy and I come on behalf of my Government not myself. If they decide to join, great. If they don't that's ok too.

I don't really have any interest in being told constantly that we should join, join, join now, join, whats stopping you? I'm here for the summit, not a recruitment show. The decision in Victoria joining is not down to me, so it would be a waste of both our time to keep giving me that line either here or in Victoria as you do.

I'm not saying you should join. I'm telling you that a nation who wants to get the advantages of the SCUE, should join the SC.

[Gerk]

I agree. Why offer benefits to nations that aren't a part of the SC? If they want benefits created by the SC, they should have to join in order to obtain them. I don't see why we should just start handing out free stuff.

[Allot]

I have to agree with Jonas and Gerk (HI BY THE WAY), it really doesn't make sense for non-SC members to have access to the SCUE. It's like North Korea applying for welfare from the UN.

[Jonas]

I have to agree with Jonas and Gerk (HI BY THE WAY), it really doesn't make sense for non-SC members to have access to the SCUE. It's like North Korea applying for welfare from the UN.

Hehehe.

[Dr Bjorn Olsen]

So concensus thus far is "don't interact with non-members"?

[Malliki Tosha]

Not really. The consensus so far seems to be to interact with non-members, but not letting non-members into the organisations of the SC.

[Dr Bjorn Olsen]

What interaction would we need then?

[Erik Mortis]

Some thoughts.

Reasons as a nation why it is not in your best interest to link into the economy without joining the SCUE:
1. You MUST register your accounts in another nation that is a SCUE member. You are then subject to that nation's laws, taxes, etc. You love sovereignty.
2. The money given you is likely a loan, putting you in debt overall. This gives power to your creditor. Lose of Sovereignty.
3. You have no say in the workings of the SCUE itself, as you are not a member.

Reasons as an organization to not allow non-members to link into the economy.
1. Lack of control. You cannot control the money that goes into those counties, except by imposing on the link in country that is a member of the SCUE.
2. As a country who makes the loan/link to the other country you become accountable for representative that nation and policing it.
3. The linked in country has no accountability to the SCUE or its members. It could do anything with that money, keep it hostage, hand it off to another nation..etc.
4. Complication of the system.
5. Alternate exchange rates are possibly created, which is antithetical to the goals of the SCUE to create a single currency with no exchange rates.


On a technical note: The bank at this time cannot handle more then one currency and exchange rates. I could make it handle it, but I would not advise it. Would make the software a bit more complex and we would have to constantly maintain the rates.

[Andreas the Wise]

Bjorn (and Phineas, for Antica)

Currently, there is absolutely nothing stopping you, as a private citizen of Victoria, becoming a citizen of any SCUE nation, registering an account there, and amassing millions to give to other Victorians. There is also nothing stopping you, as a Victorian diplomat, going along to Gralus, saying "Hey guys, can we have 10 000 GELT and our own 'region' on the bank so we can be get SCUE money without being members?" You'd put a region "Victoria" within the nation "Gralus", and you'd agree via treaty that you're tax exempt etc.

Ari's idea was to go one step further, change the existing treaty and allow non-member states to be registered to the bank; so you'd still have to get the money off Gralus, but could register your accounts in Victoria. As you can see, that's not wildly popular among member states at the moment, so changing the treaty like that is unlikely. But even if it isn't changed, it doesn't stop you doing the above.

[Erik Mortis]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind something preventing "above" from being possible.

[Harvey Steffke]

Well, the treaty only gives new money (created out of thin air) to nations that join. If individual citizens want to join somehow, and they are not being given new money but find ways to get their money from somewhere else, then I think that should be okay. I mean, it's f'ing weird to go through all that much trouble to avoid getting the free money, but if people hate the SC that much yet want to be a part of it (??? yeah I don't know) then okay, I guess.

[Maximilian]

There is also nothing stopping you, as a Victorian diplomat, going along to Gralus, saying "Hey guys, can we have 10 000 GELT and our own 'region' on the bank so we can be get SCUE money without being members?" You'd put a region "Victoria" within the nation "Gralus", and you'd agree via treaty that you're tax exempt etc.

I think this is something we should prevent. This is more or less a gap in the system. I like nations joining the SCUE, but only via the rigtheous way: become a member of the SC.

[Andreas the Wise]

We could potentially insist that nations only include regions which are in their nation; but I have no objections to shady deals of giving citizens in non-member nations money; whether so they can do ForEx or participate without being a member or whatever. The SCUE gives it's members money and a bank - that is all. What they do with that is entirely up to them. Some of the most interesting economic happenings are those shady back room deals, and to remove them lessens the richness of the economy for us all.

[Gert Geens]

Though I side with Eric and Max instinctively, and will continue to have negative feelings about this, rationally (and from a political point of view) I support Andreas' view.

The bad feelings will probably be solved when no nation with a little pride will want to be officially/financially a region of some other country.

[Erik Mortis]

I just don't like the idea of supporting breaking of the system as policy.

(It's Erik with a 'K' btw...not Eric with a 'C' seems silly but it matters to me.)

[Kaiser Malarbor I]

Hate to contradict you, Erik, but I'd like to hear some clarifications to your arguments...

1. Lack of control. You cannot control the money that goes into those counties, except by imposing on the link in country that is a member of the SCUE.

In what way does this matter to anyone but the creditor?

2. As a country who makes the loan/link to the other country you become accountable for representative that nation and policing it.

Indeed you do. That's the *point*. If the SCUE members as a whole were willing to grant credit-by-printing-money to nations that weren't joining the SCUE treaty, I wouldn't be driving this issue at all. I want people to have a chance to use their own money to expand the economy without placing liability on every member state.

3. The linked in country has no accountability to the SCUE or its members. It could do anything with that money, keep it hostage, hand it off to another nation..etc.

No, but the creditor does. Remember that credit comes from trust. Again, the point is that the SCUE as a whole doesn't need to be liable for the new member nations, only the creditors who have chosen to be involved do.

4. Complication of the system.

Minimal as far as I can tell, especially since you're getting the loan mod done so little external bookkeeping would be needed.

5. Alternate exchange rates are possibly created, which is antithetical to the goals of the SCUE to create a single currency with no exchange rates.

This one *is* a valid point, actually. If a nation manages to get, say, 1000 scuc in zero-interest, "do us a favour sometime if you like" credit, and any more credit would only be forthcoming on terms involving interest and such... then yes, we'd be seeing far lower prices for services offered in that nation than elsewhere, and given the level of intermicronational economic activity in the SCUE that would take a good while to correct. The nation could levy tariffs to correct for this, but that's hardly a solution that anyone would like. Still...

Still, I really would like to at least see the option provided for the nations that want it. I'd appreciate it if someone could give me an example of an outcome where the policy would hurt anyone but creditors making poor choices with their own money.

[Harvey Steffke]

Technical issues aside, I still haven't seen anyone properly explain why we should be coming up with workarounds like this for people that don't like the Small Commonwealth to the point where they don't want to sign a few documents that give them no obligations on sovereignty and give them a huge amount of money to just play with as they want to. Seriously. We've got a dozen nations that agree to the rules and a couple that want to toss them away. Why should we be supporting undermining our own treaties in favor of the people that don't like the organization?

[Erik Mortis]

I think Harvey has hit it on the head. We shouldn't be undermining the treaties. Especially if we want them to mean something.

If nations can linkin/join the economy without signing the treaty.. The treaty is meaningless.

[Andreas the Wise]

I don't think of it as undermining the treaties. I think of it as blatantly exploiting those fools who don't want money with no strings attached. And blatant exploitation is always fun.

(Though Ari - no tariffs. I'm pretty sure that's in the treaty)

[Harvey Steffke]

Well, the way I see it, a citizen of a SCUE member nation (such as Andreas) giving a member of a non-SCUE nation that has nevertheless registered an account in a SCUE nation (such as Bjorn, and let's put in him in Gralus in this example) is perfectly fine. That falls under a nation's right to do whatever they want with their money. The fact that Bjorn isn't a citizen of Gralus doesn't matter to me because his account would be, which is a poor position for him, but a legal one as far as I'm concerned for the SCUE.

Where I have issues is where non-member countries want their own categories, such as Bjorn having a Victoria-based account. Since Victoria isn't a member of the Small Commonwealth, we can't touch them PERIOD, which means they're basically immune to whatever we decide regarding the SCUE, the SC in general, any future court system the SC gets, changes to any treaties, and so on. I don't know what sort of complications that could cause, but I doubt they're good ones.

So the first example is probably okay if beyond strange but the second goes beyond the scope of our treaties and is unacceptable.

[Chrimigules]

Ari's explanation of why the SCUE was limited to only SC members (http://shireroth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=12732) convinced me that it's probably the best idea. Anyone who wants to participate in the SCUE should participate through those nations that have properly signed into it, and by implication have signed into the SC itself.

[Gert Geens]

EriK (you're damn right to find spelling of your name important, and I'll try to remember it), let me be clear first of all that I agree there's no reason at all for the SC and the SCUE to find ways for circumventing the treaties. Treaties should be respected, period.

What I meant with politically supporting Andreas, was that the current treaty does in fact allow for non-member nations to become a region of a member-state (at least on paper) and in that way get their hand on some SCUE-money. Politically I support freedom and national sovereignty, so if some member-nation wants to open itself up for such a deal, I'd allow it.

Note that this way of acting obliges the region-nation to adhere to the SCUE rules: they will be imposed by their host-nation, which controlls the accounts.

My supporting of Andreas' point of view stops at allowing non members to have the same rights and priviliges as other member nations. If you're talking about that, you should first talk about abolishing the SC, as to me it is the same thing.