What's wrong with us?

[Scott of Hyperborea]

So a bunch of people have left recently, and I accused them of trying to be passive-aggressive and make us feel guilty, and they've all come to me privately and said no, that's not it, they actually really don't enjoy Shireroth anymore because people keep arguing with them and not including them and so on.

In the chat, lots of people have said they want Shireroth to have more politics. But every time we have a political issue, it upsets people and drives them away. Why is that? Other countries manage okay - even Antica hasn't ended up like Old Cyberia and blown up in a frenzy of mutual loathing.

I haven't ever felt that people are being mean to me, but every time I try to change something I end up feeling so guilty that I usually give up halfway. I'm this close to voting no on the flag change because I feel like there's a large group of people who feel like it's ruining their lives or something.

Are Shirerithians just really bad at having civilized discussions without making things personal? Is it just a few people? Are we all really emo? Is it a consequence of our political system not leaving any other options for people who feel they've been wronged? I totally don't get it, and I'm afraid to do anything else in Shireroth until I figure it out.

[Malliki Tosha]

I like "Old Cyberia", to separate it from New Cyberia which is awesome, cause we have Artz.

In a democratic micronation, everyone is pretty much okay with the fact that the majority usually rules. Sometimes you're a part of that majority, sometimes not, but you do have the opportunity to be part of it. Here, we operate under the rule that for most decisions, one person rules. Our only safety valve is rebellion or leaving if that person does something we don't agree with.

I think each and every person here needs to think long and hard what kind of Shireroth zie wants. Is it the semi-autocracy that excludes more people than it includes, or is it perhaps something else?

[Gman Russell]

In a democratic micronation, everyone is pretty much okay with the fact that the majority usually rules.

Not true at all, i've been a part of alot of nations that split right down the middle because of that. Becoming a democracy wont change that, or mitigate people's feelings.

And Scott, every issue you want to change is fairly massive. Flags, forum colors, backgrounds, etc etc. You choose the worst subjects to be political about, and then wonder why people get all huffy about it. You understand?

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Gman: Not really. Harvey left because Jonas changed the capital. Andreas left because people gave him grief over the Al'Magroth stuff. Neither of those was my fault, or even very important.

[Malliki Tosha]

In a democratic micronation, everyone is pretty much okay with the fact that the majority usually rules.

Not true at all, i've been a part of alot of nations that split right down the middle because of that. Becoming a democracy wont change that, or mitigate people's feelings.

And Scott, every issue you want to change is fairly massive. Flags, forum colors, backgrounds, etc etc. You choose the worst subjects to be political about, and then wonder why people get all huffy about it. You understand?

When did I say anything about becoming a democracy?

[Gman Russell]

Malliki: It was implied in your statement, but you'll argue that it wasn't so i'll let it go. Point is, being a democracy won't solve peoples bad feelings.

Scott: That's true, you had nothing to do with those, yes. But you have been the primary participant in alot of controversial changes that have caused bad blood, yes?

[Scott of Hyperborea]

But that's the thing. It seems everything more important than "declare March 19th to be Puppy Appreciation Day" causes bad blood around here - witness Jonas' capital decree.

[Gman Russell]

Just to clarify, i'm not mad at that, I just had no idea of what was going on! I didn't even know there was an RPG going on.

But that's not the point. The point is that changing the capital (even for an RPG which alot of people didn't know about) IS a big deal. Jonas should have known that changing something by decree for an RPG would stir the pot, so to speak, simply because alot of people here don't do RPG's.

[Shyriath]

Jonas should have known that changing something by decree for an RPG would stir the pot, so to speak, simply because alot of people here don't do RPG's.

The timing might've been a bit bad, too. Just RPing a change of capital wouldn't have been so bad; Decreeing one, although maybe not the best use of a Decree, might not have been so bad if it were by itself. But when people are already all riled up about the flag, and they see a presumably official Decree about changing the capital at the SAME TIME...

That's what went through my head, anyway, before I mellowed out.

For the record, Scott: if it helps, I am hereby refusing to freak out over the flag issue. Not liking it ain't the same thing as being unable to live with it.

[AryezturMejorkhor]

It seems to me that when people focus on their subnational entities, they are generally happy and people get along fairly well. Culture is created, everyone is amused and happy. On the Ducal level, everyone's happy and having fun. Its only at the central/federal/whatever-you-call-it level that you have all these problems. From the Laandsraad vote allocation issue to the Kaiser decree controversies

Everyone's fine with autocracy on the local level since its mostly people working on smaller projects that don't affect the whole nation. So the way Duchies and Baronies are run should remain the same. However, the central government in Shirekeep probably ought to become a Republic with an elected leader a Laandsraad in which commoners get one vote and nobles get 5-10 votes and some mechanism to divide power between the Laandsraad, regions and the ruler. The Duchies would remain autocratic as they are now.

[Malliki Tosha]

Or people could just chill.

[Kaiser Leto III]

In a democratic micronation, everyone is pretty much okay with the fact that the majority usually rules.

Not true at all, i've been a part of alot of nations that split right down the middle because of that. Becoming a democracy wont change that, or mitigate people's feelings.

I agree. Enough proof in history that shows that democracy doesn't work. I think about Ocia, which was a democracy. Or in my own Sector, I think about Brabantia.

However, the central government in Shirekeep probably ought to become a Republic with an elected leader a Laandsraad in which commoners get one vote and nobles get 5-10 votes and some mechanism to divide power between the Laandsraad, regions and the ruler. The Duchies would remain autocratic as they are now.

Nope, no democracy. Shireroth has its traditions and I can assure that a real republic would make Shireroth collapse. The only thing that avoided the Republic to collapse in less active times, was the autocratic government with the Kaiser.

[Icebreaker]

Are we all really emo?

DING DING DING DING DING!!!

[Aurangzeb Khan]

The importance of some of the subjects being argued about recently may have been exaggerated somewhat. That is to say people are being silly and ridiculous even in the context of a hobby characterised by some sublimely ridiculous conceits.

[Allot]

As this is the Shrine of Controversy, I feel entitled to propose that we khan this whole debate.

[Daniel Farewell]

HEH. I still love you guys, all of you, despite my kaisership was making me all anxious :P

[Bill3000]

Mostly various mental illnesses.

[Daniel Farewell]

Indeed.

My doctor sent me to be clinically tested by a psychologist. I had to do a Rorschach test and various other tests, I wonder what they'll find out :-p

[Aurangzeb Khan]

At least it wasn't Voight-Kampff.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

After reading some stuff on tic disorders, I just upgraded my officially diagnosed OCD to an unofficially diagnosed OCD with tic symptoms.

Anyway, I'm over this. There's nothing wrong with us that taking some deep breaths and thinking things over won't fix.

[Erik Mortis]

And if it matters... I left (went on LOA) due to stress/frustration (happens to me on occasion), and wanting to focus on the bank and some RL stuff. The flag thing was just a stressor, not a reason for leaving, if that clears things up.

[Kaiser Leto III]

After reading through some stuff, I had to laugh: those who want a more 'fair' system in which the majority rules (aka: some older citizens use their influence to force people to chose in a certain way), have proven themselves excellent backstabber's.
Please, show me a post in which I left because I disagreed with the Kaiser? You will not find one. And why? Because I wasn't so cowardly (I'm sorry, don't know a better word for it) to blackmail the rulers when I didn't got what I wanted (and much chance that nobody would care anyway). Oh yes, you can say it isn't because of the Kaiser but something else, but in reality it's just to make him (and the supporters) feel guilty.
Some even complain about the activity. The facts are: January was an active month (look to the forumlist, we stood 2nd!). And we could have been more active if people didn't stop working just because they disagreed with the ruler. Harvey, I believe you have a project on which you want to start once I'm gone.

The dissatisfaction is, of course, also my fault. But I'm afraid that people sometimes misunderstood my posts. Mike, for example: when I told you (in the IAC) that the matter where Bjorn was working on was none of your business, I didn't mean it bad. But your behaviour (and you can call me arrogant for it) had upset me and I didn't felt obligated to tell you something that had totally nothing to do with my Kaisership. Probably the wrong way to react.
Before wanting to change the system you would better look to yourself (I include myself btw): did you run away when you disagreed? Did you stop working because you disagreed?

On another note, and less relevant: I'm still not feeling guilty about the temporary move of the capital to Eliria.

And for those who say I never listened: I have repealed decrees when there was decent resistance with arguments. And to the contrary of what some believe: it's not because I want an other flag, that I want to change the forumstyle.

And if you want to know: I received one kind PM to step down with some decent arguments. One. And I can tell you that something like that convinces me more then people who leave.

[Malliki Tosha]

I apologize for calling you arrogant. Your reaction to that PM, which I saw the text to and approved of, proves that you are a good person.

[Kaiser Leto III]

I apologize for calling you arrogant. Your reaction to that PM, which I saw the text to and approved of, proves that you are a good person.

Are we friends again?

[Harvey Steffke]

And if you want to know: I received one kind PM to step down with some decent arguments. One. And I can tell you that something like that convinces me more then people who leave.

With respect, you received one PM to step down because the group that was discussing the issue decided to send you one PM asking you to step down. That was "Plan A", as it came to be called.

[Malliki Tosha]

I apologize for calling you arrogant. Your reaction to that PM, which I saw the text to and approved of, proves that you are a good person.

Are we friends again?

NO! Screw you, I'm leaving!

[Kaiser Leto III]

And if you want to know: I received one kind PM to step down with some decent arguments. One. And I can tell you that something like that convinces me more then people who leave.

With respect, you received one PM to step down because the group that was discussing the issue decided to send you one PM asking you to step down. That was "Plan A", as it came to be called.

Nope, I count going on a semi-LOA to try to force me to step down as 'Plan A'. But because that places you and others in bad daylight, you forget it. The PM was the only civilized message I got.

NO! Screw you, I'm leaving!

Oooohhhh.

[Shyriath]

There's nothing wrong with us that taking some deep breaths and thinking things over won't fix.

True dat.

I find that the ability to let things go, when things must be let go of, is a major component of contentment; we'll get further with some thought, some discussion, and some open minds than we will with yelling and hysterics, however much more fun those might be in the short term.

[Malliki Tosha]

Shy, screw you! I'm still leaving!

[Andreas the Wise]

It may just be me, but I've found the rapid increase of posts along the lines of "Lame" or "Stupid" annoying and unhelpful. If you don't like something, can you either give constructive criticism about what elements you don't like and how it could be made into something you would like; or just ignore it and not say anything? And if it's something you really don't like and will never like no matter how many changes are made, then could you just make one post once (eg "I think conlangs are stupid, nobody but the creator reads them and you're wasting your time") and then not feel the need to repeat that basic sentiment every time the topic is brought up, particularly if there are a couple people who do really like whatever it is that's being done.

I don't think there's any problem with the political system, though, apart from this: if you're a person who likes working up in micronations, you can work up from Count to Duke, and if you're only a Shirithian, from Duke to Kaiser, but where do you go from there? On that note, making people who've been here five minutes Duke just because there's nobody else in the Duchy seems silly to me, because then they can't work up to Duke and properly earn the position. But maybe that's just my personality type.