Procedures Amendment Bill 3805 ASC

[Malliki Tosha]

I propose the following amendment to the Procedures of the Landsraad, to prevent democracy and to bring back the status of this august body:

B. Voting Privileges
Each Duke is allocated one vote.

Current version:

B. Votes
1. Each Duke is allocated 10 votes that they may cast, or assign to subordinate nobles.
2. A Duke must always have the largest single vote amongst himself and his lesser nobles.
3. A Lesser noble may never have more then 5 votes.
4. Votes possessed and cast by a noble must always be integers.
5. A Duke may assign votes as he sees fit among his subordinate nobles, provided the above criteria.

[Daniel Farewell]

Nobles of Shireroth!

I urge you all to support this bill.

Membership in the Landsraad should be something to be striven for. It should be a privilege, not a rule, to stand before the Landsraad and debate matters of State.

The current system doesn't work. People don't debate, they don't vote. It's an apathy. To bring back speed, debate, and good manners, the Landsraad must return to the one-duchy-one-vote system. We need it for the sake of Shireroth.

[Malliki Tosha]

It would be pretty ironic if this bill was defeated by the votes from the Lesser Nobles...

I fully support this bill, even though I would lose my votes here.

Greater Lakhesis (2) - AYE!!!

[Ryan]

I am on the fence about this proposal.

On one side, I feel that Shireroth is autocratic, and by virtue of that fact, that the state should function as a proper imperial government, with only certain officials having a say in the legislature. Coupled with the fact that many of the lower nobles who have been delegated votes fail to use them, it makes sense to approve this proposal.

On the other side, delegating votes could be better used to encourage lesser nobles to work up the ladder. If the only person who has any power is the Duke/Duchess, then there is little incentive to focus on developing either a barony or county. The focus will be purely on "How can I boot the old Duke out, and get the job for myself?". By delegating votes out to lesser nobles, you create more of a ladder hierarchy for people to climb. Less so if only one person has the power.

I will think on this more before I cast a vote.

[Daniel Farewell]

My Lord Yardistan -- I don't think that would be a problem. After all, we have the front gate where all non-dukes would be able to advise and debate proposals. If a duke sees that his underlings debate well, reason well and advise well, then he sees them as potential candidates. Everyone would still be able to comment, debate, advise... To come up with own proposals. I am sure that many of us have the decency to bring up well-thought proposals to the Landsraad even if we disagreed with them.

[Harvey Steffke]

Oh screw ALL you guys. The moment I become a duke everyone and their mother gets votes here and when I leave the position you want to go back to the old way.

Bah, bah I say!

All I care about in Shireroth is being able to talk in this body. I don't even really care about being able to vote in this body; I just like being able to talk here.

[Malliki Tosha]

Which you still would be allowed to do if this is passed, provided you are a Lesser Noble. This only concerns voting.

[Erik Mortis]

wow.. that didn't last long.

[AryezturMejorkhor]

On the other side, delegating votes could be better used to encourage lesser nobles to work up the ladder. If the only person who has any power is the Duke/Duchess, then there is little incentive to focus on developing either a barony or county. The focus will be purely on "How can I boot the old Duke out, and get the job for myself?". By delegating votes out to lesser nobles, you create more of a ladder hierarchy for people to climb. Less so if only one person has the power.

I agree here with Ryan's reasoning. Also I agree that Shireroth is autocratic; to maintain this autocracy, Dukes must continue to have the sole power to give out votes at whim. Only Dukes can decide how and to whom they allocate votes to, so ultimately only the Dukes decide how to allocate their votes. If they wish for the old system, they can just keep their 10 votes all to themselves.

Therefore, I will vote against this.

Goldshire (4)- Nay

[Allot]

I am shocked and appalled, Malliki. Not shocked. Not appalled. BOTH.

Iserdia, AYE (2)

Code: Select all

AYE: [G.Lakhesis (2)] [Iserdia (2)] [Brookshire (6)] === 10
NAY: [Goldshire (4)] [Dolor (2)] [Khorze (3)] [Straylight (10)] [Yardsitan (10)] [Kildare (10)] [Elwynn (5)] [Eliria (2)] === 46
ABSTAIN:

[Daniel Farewell]

Brookshire: Aye (6)

[Leo Fenrir]

I am shocked and appalled, Malliki. Not shocked. Not appalled. BOTH.

That sir! Is my line.

Goldendown (3) AYE

[Erik Mortis]

I honestly find all this funny. Didn't we switch to this system a month ago cause the last one wasn't working?

Dolor, NAY (2).

[Harvey Steffke]

I gotta vote nay if only to go down on record of voting nay for the last time.

Khorze NAY (3)

[Erik Mortis]

I don't think people quite realize what is being done here. The compromise the current rules embody, and the fact this system was the norm for Shireroth during some of its greatest most active YEARS. This isn't some new, oh it was a nice idea, systems. This was the system used for something like 2-3 years back in 2003 -/+ a year. If a Duke feels they want to have more ..."value" keep all their votes. Let the other Duchies water down their power.

Vote NAY! The system we have now gives us more activity, more interesting situations, and more intrigue. Many Praetors, including myself, were able to handle this system with no difficulty. It just takes a firm hand and proper bookkeeping. This system works, and for the size of the nation we have now, it superior to the 1 vote 1 duke system.

The 1 vote 1 duke system was the first, I admit, and in times of struggle and collapse, is the system to use. But not now. Now it is a system of boredom and stagnation. It is a means to lessen the appeal of the nation, to lesser what keeps people coming back. It's not just a lessening of votes, its a lessening of Shireroth.

[Harvey Steffke]

Preach it, brother!

Like Erik said, the compromise to this situation is inherent to the current system. If a duke feels that they don't want voting power spread out, all they have to do is take it back the voting privileges they've given out.

Membership in the Landsraad should be something to be striven for. It should be a privilege, not a rule, to stand before the Landsraad and debate matters of State.

The current system doesn't work. People don't debate, they don't vote. It's an apathy. To bring back speed, debate, and good manners, the Landsraad must return to the one-duchy-one-vote system.

Returning to the one-duke one-vote system won't change any of this. It's already been stated this affects only voting, not debating, so that entire line of membership sanctity arguing is moot - everyone that has access will still have access. If people aren't debating or voting, their dukes shouldn't be wasting their votes on them. Regarding apathy, there are many months on record of one-duke one-vote times when the dukes themselves didn't care about the Landsraad at all. And good manners... anyone that claims that a law creates better people is selling something, and it's probably not something you want to buy.

I'm not only urging you to vote nay, I'm urging this bill's sponsor to withdraw it from the floor, less it actually pass and sabotage the system and all its positive benefits we enjoy right now.

[Malliki Tosha]

I'm not going to withdraw it, since I support it. You seem to put little faith in the system you defend.

[Harvey Steffke]

I put a heck of a lot less faith in the system you defend. Too few have the power to mix it up, so when they grow lax and comfortable with their status, the entire Landsraad dies. The rest of the nation had to sit by and idly make snide comments at how slow the Landsraad was moving.

The very fact that you introduced this bill and support it, and the very fact that I am here trying to move against it, is proof that the system currently works! To throw all this activity and interest away is to intentionally be slitting our own throats.

[Malliki Tosha]

I think, although you are free to correct me, that the only people that regularly debate here are me, Erik, Ric and you. Most members only drop in to vote.

[Erik Mortis]

But they Vote. With the level of activity we have now, reducing to dukes will aid no one, it'll lock up the system when the Dukes get bored and apathetic. You yourself couldn't be bothered to vote for ages, you had me doing it as your emissary.

Shireroth's system is built to expand and contract as needed. In a time of national expansion we should NOT be using the contraction procedures! We should be striving to engage and encourage as many as possible.

If this passes it will be a travesty to Shireroth and it's current state of expansion. If you want one vote one Duke. Use the current system to achieve it. It's why we are using it. It was and is the best system of voting we ever had.

It's perfectly built for times of expansion and contraction. When we need to contract, Dukes can consolidate their votes. When we need to expand, we can spread the votes around. And here you want to wipe all that potential out. You want to push this body once more into stagnation. Mark my words, this will NOT lead to a better Landsraad, but a diminished one. This is why we enacted this system! We sought to improve the Landsraad.

The 1-Vote system was put in place during the Great Consolidation as a response to a diminished nation. We didn't have enough people, we had almost nothing. We needed to consolidate. Now we have many! Why do you seek to go backward? Do you want to diminish this body and this Nation?

It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of History. This is the Wrong action at the Wrong time.

[Malliki Tosha]

I don't think so. I don't think it hinges on the voting system, but on who participates. And as you see, not many do, and those that don't would still have access, but no vote. So I fail to see the issue.

[Erik Mortis]

I think, although you are free to correct me, that the only people that regularly debate here are me, Erik, Ric and you. Most members only drop in to vote.

If true: By your own admission/argument, you will will be removing 3 out of 4 of the active participants from this body. And that is ONLY assuming that others are not to be included in that list. How is this an improvement? To remove those who care? To remove those with opinion? How is that improvement Mike? And what of the others? There are others who vote here. Who speak here. What of them?

And if it does hinge on who participates, how does removing more people make that better? How does removing people from the Landsraad make more people participate.

You're issue is with the current set of Nobles, not the system. But you see this change in the system as a means to punish them. There is no reform here Mike.

[Malliki Tosha]

I was under the impression that Lesser Nobles could still participate, but not vote? Has there been a Charter change I can't remember, because otherwise, you're rewriting your own interpretation of it.

And now I saw the amendment to the first section. That should be changed too. It's not my intention to remove the right of lesser nobles to speak, only to vote.

[Erik Mortis]

If they can't vote.. what's the point? Duke's will simply ignore. There's the front-gate they can use to be ignored. It's not going to encourage participation. All arguments stand.

[Malliki Tosha]

Neither does the current system. You, me, Ric and Allot account for 75% of the total amount of posts since the restructure. We would still be allowed to post.

[Erik Mortis]

But not vote. I don't see how this has improve the status of Dukes as is your main argument. In fact. Dukes haven't changed one bit. All you've done is diminished the active voters. Not enhanced it. This bill does NOTHING you claim it will. It does nothing for Dukes as individuals and as a status.

[Malliki Tosha]

Yes it does. It brings back the exclusivity of a Landsraad vote, being one amongst few. Now, nearly everyone can vote. Pretty close to democracy in my book.

[Erik Mortis]

But votes have differing weight. A Dukes' vote is still strongest among all other nobles in his Duchy. In fact you argued, along with me, that this was a good thing when we sought to enact these measures. To give more options and dynamic structure to the Landsraad. The system we have now lets Duchies have a far larger number of options in this nation, in how they structure the politics of their Duchy. More intrigue is good. And our system open up room for more intrigue.

[Malliki Tosha]

But there is no intrigue. Dukes hand out votes to all their Lesser Nobles, without discussion.

We are getting nowhere with this discussion, Erik. You have your view, which I respect, and I have my view. Let's just see what happens and respect the outcome.

Over and out.

[Erik Mortis]

Not over and out.

You once again stated that your issue is with the actions of Duke.. yet you want to make them the ones with all the votes. Instead of talking to dukes to change their actions, you simply are striving to plaster over the problem with legislature that won't do what you want.

The Dukes will remain a problem, if that is what you have a problem with. You will still fight with Goldshire. That will not change.