Discussion: Landsraad Membership. By the letter.

[Erik Mortis]

There is issue. As Arbiter I am starting a discussion of the issue. I'll start with the highest law and work down.

Charter: II. C. a & e

a. The Landsraad shall consist of the Nobles of Shireroth.
e. Only Nobles of Shireroth or Emissaries appointed by a noble may speak or vote within the Landsraad. The nobles of the Landsraad may allow non-nobles to speak within the Landsraad under procedures specified by the Landsraad.

Looking at just the Charter. Nobles and their Emissaries have free access to the Landsraad. The Charter does not specify what consists as a Noble except for Article I, Section A Clause a.

a. The Kaiser of Shireroth is the supreme ruler, and noble, of Shireroth.

This gives the Kaiser access to the Landsraad, that cannot be revoked.

I would point out at this time, all nobles are members of the Landsraad, but not all members have votes.

Next we look to the Lawbook: Chapter II, B.

1. Duchies shall be ruled by a Noble known as a Duke or Duchess.
2. Baronies shall be ruled by a Noble known as a Baron or Baroness.

This defines Dukes and Barons as Nobles. In addition to the Charter defining the Kaiser as a Noble.

So, at this point we have the following members of the Landsraad. The Kaiser, Dukes and Barons. So only they may speak in the Landsraad, or their Emissary. And Emissary at this point has not been defined in detail.

Lawbook: IV. C. 1/2

1. Election
a. The Prætor of Shireroth may only be elected by the nobility of the land from among the Full-Citizens of the Land.
b. The Prætor does not have to be a Noble of Shireroth.
2. Powers
a. The Prætor of Shireroth shall preside over the Landsraad as chairman.
b. His/Her purpose and duty shall be to call a meeting of the Landsraad to order, tally votes, close votes, generally manage and keep order within the Landsraad; as well as keep records of all bills and resolutions passed during his/her tenure.

This defines the Praetor more clearly. And admits him into the Landsraad to perform his duties. It doesn't give the Praetor the ability to debate or vote, unless also a Noble. The Praetor is NOT a member of the Landsraad. But is an Officer of it. sub-Section 3 defines the Deputy Praetor, with all the same details. Most of this is actaully outlined in Charter: II. D.

So now it comes clear. According to the Charter/Lawbook. Barons, Dukes, and the Kaiser are members of the Landsraad. Emissaries are granted access to do their job, but are not defined. The Praetor is also admitted to do his job.

Now to the Procedures: this is where it gets muddy.

Procedures: 1

Membership in the Landsraad is determined in accordance with the Imperial Charter

Nothing changes.

Procedures: 3. Sentence 2.

Each member has one vote, which he or she may cast in any unambiguous way to represent a vote of aye or nay.

This means the Kaiser, Dukes and Barons all get 1 vote. Also, there is not Abstain, though by tradition we have one.

Procedures: 2. Allows any member of the Landsraad, and the Praetor to present bills.

Procedures 4. makes everything a mess.
Not only can the Kaiser, Nobles and the Praetor talk in the Landsraad, but also ANYONE, though there posts must be vetted first.

So... There we have it. The mess our Procedures create. When these procedures were written the nation was in a mess of a state and we ignored that barons are nobles according to the Lawbook. And thus are given access to the Landsraad.

Under the law, ALL nobles get a vote. Kaiser, Duke and Baron alike. All are equal in the Landsraad. Tradition has ignored this, since this is not what we MEANT the system to be. but what we meant and what we wrote are not the same.

All this can be viewed in the Wiki.
http://shireroth.org/shirewiki/Procedur ... _Landsraad
http://shireroth.org/shirewiki/Charter# ... r.C3.A6tor
http://shireroth.org/shirewiki/Lawbook

[Malliki Tosha]

Very nice argument Erik. This means that we can exclude the Barons via an amendment to the LawBook, but to exclude the Kaiser would take a Charter amendment.

[Erik Mortis]

That's the way I designed that part. Doesn't mean we have to give him a vote.

[Malliki Tosha]

I know, but as it stands now, all members are technically allowed to vote, unless I've missed something. We could just set the Kaiser's vote to 0% of a Duke's vote, and remove the Barons from the Landsraad by defining them as not being nobles. Or, we could do a complete overhaul in accordance with the new system on the table.

[Malliki Tosha]

Okay, this is my suggestion:

1. We redefine the membership of the Landsraad. Instead of the Landsraad consisting of "the Nobles of Shireroth", we amend the Charter so that it consists of "the members defined in the Landsraad Procedures", or something similar. This way, the membership issue is devolved to the Landsraad and only the Landsraad. As it stands now, and with the new system on the table, it would be illegal for me to give votes to a non-noble, like a count for example. This allows us to determine for ourselves who sits in the Landsraad. It also allows us the possibility to remove the Kaiser from the Landsraad. In all honesty, and this has nothing to do with my feelings for our current Kaiser, I fail to see the point in keeping the Kaiser in the Landsraad. It's like having Queen Elisabeth, already a part of the UK parliament as Queen-in-Parliament, sitting in the House of Lords. The Kaiser's word is supreme, having him in the Landsraad is strange. This also removes the whole Noble/non-noble issue. Barons can stay nobles without having a technical but untraditional vote in the Landsraad.

2. This also removes the need to point out that the Prætor doesn't have to be a noble. The text could read that he doesn't have to be a "member" of the Landsraad instead.

3. We change the Procedures to read "Dukes and those that have delegated votes are members of the Landsraad.", thus incorporating the change currently on the table.

4. We amend the voting rules.

5. We celebrate and frolick in the fields of barley.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Amending the Charter to remove the whole point of nobility? I'd like to see you get *that* through without Erik having a fit

We already have a solution in the form of http://shireroth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11834 except it stalled when Mike tried to expose the Landsraad's guts in the front gate and I promised to look at the Lawbook any other changes that would be needed and didn't... well, I did look at it, but I didn't find anything in http://shireroth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=11826 that should be changed, but I didn't want to just resubmit that bill as is because that would look spiteful, and then I got lazy and didn't say anything...

[Erik Mortis]

I see no reason to remove the Kaiser's ability to speak in the Landsraad. Mike, I think you are justing being a bit spiteful toward the current Kaiser, ( I don't blame you), but we should leave that well enough alone.

We just need to remove Barons as we talked about and introduce Lesser Noble status. This would allow you to call a count in your duchy a Lesser Noble and grant him access to the Landsraad. Including a vote if we can get the 10 vote system passed.

It's not the charter that's the problem, it's the Procedures.

If we remove the Kaiser as Supreme Noble from the charter, how can he make nobles lesser then him? Making the Kaiser NOT a noble makes no sense. It messes with tradition and with the logical applications of our system.

[Malliki Tosha]

I never said that we should remove him as supreme noble. Read again.

[Erik Mortis]

So... We want to let the common rabble into the Hall of Nobles...?

[Malliki Tosha]

Isn't that the point of the ten votes amendment?

[Erik Mortis]

No. Only Nobles would be allowed into the Landsraad. Lesser Nobles granted their status by a Duke. A Duke granted his status by the Kaiser. Hierarchy. Feudalism must be maintained, or what's the point? To just become another boring and unstable democracy?

Ten votes lets a duke give some point back to Lesser Nobles.