Devolution of Baronies?

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Harvey made a good point the other night. We use Duchies okay, and we use Counties okay, but Baronies are frickin' useless. I don't think there are more than one or two that have more than one active citizen in them, and culture-wise everyone's concentrating on their counties instead of their baronies.

Baronies have no significance on the Imperial level. They don't get you a Landsraad vote, and they don't get you anything else. The Kaiser and Landsraad have no reason at all to care about them.

Why not strike out the parts of the Lawbook relating to Baronies, and allow each Duchy to structure itself as it sees fit? This might include Baronies, or it might not.

[Jonas]

I concentrate culture and ideas around my Imperial Barony of Sermolot...

[Malliki Tosha]

Each Duchy can already structure themselves however they want. Baronies are not a requirement. Look at Straylight or Elwynn a while back.

[Erik Mortis]

Leave them alone. If nothing else they help with structuring things. I like being a Baron. There may be no reason to keep them, in your view, but there is no reason to remove them. If you don't want them, don't use them in your duchy.

[Andreas the Wise]

Some Duchies give their Barons a say in matters, that the Counts do not necessarily get.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Yeah, this is not exactly the newest idea in the book, it was contained within my big huge federalism bill (which I might start lobbying for again one of these days, btw - I never got around to explaining a few things that people got wrong about it) for instance.

Anyways, just to split hairs, barons do appear in a few places in the Lawbook where they have some significance. Most notably the Judex - barons are considered part of it, counts aren't. I'd prefer to fix that so that the Duke can just appoint subjudices as necessary. I know for a fact that there have been recent uses of the oath law (which is part of the Judex law - i.e. barons can be witness to oaths), so that's technically a bias toward dukes who structure their duchies with baronies. Then there's also the legal technicality that barons are nobles and the Landsraad is the place where the nobles speak out, though I'm not sure I ever had any idea what significance that's supposed to have (if any these days).

So, yeah, I pretty much agree with Scott here. Taking baronies out of the lawbook would be a nice little cleanup.

[Harvey Steffke]

We have a Judex? I'm not entirely sure I'm kidding.

Anyway, since I suggested the idea, I still approve of it. It seems like a meaninglessly complicated division. Any cultural work applied to a barony could be applied to one or more of the counties.

[Erik Mortis]

NEVER! Baronies have there uses, just no one uses them. If I could get some more people in Dolor I'd make use of baronies. Barons, as pointed out, have a place in the Lawbook and in the system, and have for a long time. I believe Kildare uses it's Baronies. If you don't want barons, don't have them in your Duchy.

One of these days Barons will be powerful enough to challenge for a place in the Landsraad again.

[Jonas]

Kildare uses them, so I also object to this matter. But I will not stop anyone of banning Baronies in their own Barony.

[AryezturMejorkhor]

Indeed, Khorze functions as a Barony and not as constituent Counties.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Of course the Landsraad, being an august and wise body, is free to legislate on this matter in whatever way it sees fit but your Graces are invited to note that the Imperial Household considers the creation and dissolution of baronies and counties to be, in the first instance, a matter for individual duchies to administer to their own satisfaction, else life would be rather dull in the sub-divisions. The Imperial Government need only take a real interest if ever there is an actual threat to the safety and integrity of the Realm.

The status quo affords sufficient flexibility to ensure that baronies are useful within a duchy whenever there is scope for them to be so, or else they remain a pleasantly archaic constitutional ornament in those duchies where the county is the most functional tier of local administration.

[Malliki Tosha]

I agree with the murderer from Balgurd.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

I agree with the murderer from Balgurd.

I'd prefer "Enlightened Abomination from the Pit". Ta.

[Harvey Steffke]

The Kaiser being a demon aside, I think it's safe to say this doesn't have enough backing to go anywhere.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Well how about something like...

Section II. B. Nobles shall be amended as follows:

1. Duchies shall be ruled by a Noble known as a Duke or Duchess.
2. Baronies shall be ruled by a Noble known as a Baron or Baroness.
2. Dukes may grant positions of Nobility to citizens of their Duchy.

Section III. A. H. Multiple Titles of Nobility shall be amended as follows:

1. No Shirithian shall rule over more than one subdivision with a single exception. In the event that a subdivision is without a ruling Noble, the ruling Noble of the subdivision above it shall take rule over the vacant subdivision. The citizens of the subdivision shall have one Shirithian week to decide upon a new ruling Noble, after which time, the subdivision goes under the direct control of the Kaiser until a new Noble is appointed.
2. A Shirithian is allowed to hold titles in fiefdoms other than their own as long as these are below the rank of baron. There is no restriction on the number of these titles they may hold as they do not affect the Imperial Government of Shireroth.
1. No Shirithian shall have more than one position of Nobility, with the exception of any position strictly subordinate to another title that the person in question has.

Section VII. A. The Judex shall be amended as follows:
1. The Judex is the system of Courts within the nation of Shireroth.
a. The Kaiser is the highest body of law and acts as final Arbiter for the nation of Shireroth and the Kaiser shall hold court in the Kaiser's Court forum.
b. The Arbiter is the officer of the Judex who deals with all cases not solely within the purview of a Duchy or Barony, the Arbiter holds court in the Judex forum.
c. Dukes act as Arbiter for their Duchy and have jurisdiction on any case solely within their Duchy, they hold court in their Ducal forum.
d. Barons act as Arbiter for their Barony and have jurisdiction on any case solely within their Barony, they hold court in their Baronial forum.
d. Dukes may extend the Judex system within their Duchy with more Arbiters, and delegate the power of extending the Judex further, so long as any extension is within the bounds of trial and oath law.

Section VII. D. Oaths shall be amended as follows:
1. Any member of the Judex system (That is the Kaiser, the Imperial Arbiter, the Dukes, and Barons) may bear witness to an oath sworn in the Imperial Republic of Shireroth.
1. Any Arbiter may bear witness to an oath sworn in the Imperial Republic of Shireroth.
2. The penalty for breaking a sworn Oath shall be whatever deemed appropriate by the witnessing official or shall be whatever was set and agreed upon in the Oath itself.
3. Once sworn by both parties and before a member of the Judex system, Oaths hold the weight of Imperial Law as a binding contract and agreement between the two parties.

Nobility remains as weird as it always was, except now Dukes get to point at people and go "You there! You're noble now!" whereas they previously had to use the name of Baron. What this actually means is a bit subtle, but it has to do with Erik's impossibly patient plan to make sure that the Charter always says "The Landsraad shall consist of the Nobles of Shireroth" rather than Dukes, so that he can bring out the Kehl again some day, however long that might take. I of course want to put a stop to this evil plot of his, because I see Shireroth in a completely different light, as a collection of states almost entirely independent in internal affairs, where there's no guarantee any Duchy will have anything looking even remotely like nobility within it aside the Duke zirself. Freeing up lower nobility from the title of Baron doesn't quite get me there but should mix things up a bit .

Also, yeah, the Judex gets the software engineer's touch. You could technically recurse it down as far as you like now. I also decoupled it from nobility because, well, again, I think it's appropriate that Duchies should be able to set up their judicial systems as they like, and if that involves separate local leaders and Arbiters, well, so be it.

I'll proly be taking this into the Landsraad in fairly short order unless anyone has something important to point out..?

[Malliki Tosha]

I'm just pointing out that I don't support it.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Well I might as well try to explain what I'm going for here.

What the Landsraad legislates has, for the last couple of years (in fact pretty much ever since the end of New Feudalism, since I don't think we ever had a Feudal Holdings Act in force after that - and if not from then, then certainly ever since the Great Consolidation), had very little to do with the foundation and destruction of baronies. I think there was a period when the foundation of baronies had to be approved by the Landsraad, but that was fixed, too.

You hear that? Whether baronies are in the lawbook has very little to do with how anyone chooses to structure their duchies. Seriously. If the Kaiser decreed tomorrow that there is to be no mention of baronies in the lawbook, then... Khorze would keep functioning as it does, no-one in Sermolot would even notice, and at the same time Straylight's counties would stay just the same sort of counties as they are. Except...

Except for the details. One detail is that I can't have nobles in Straylight because I don't want baronies (there was a time I did, but I never figured out how to make them work). Nobility aside being a duke mightn't mean much at the moment, but if Erik has his way it eventually will again. Another detail is that I can't extend the Judex down into parts of Straylight. The lawbook has a bias in favour of the Dukes who decide to use baronies in their duchy's internal structure. It's a slight bias, but it's there. Being that it's a bias against me I'd like to get rid of it .

In my mind, the problem never was that baronies are useless. In my mind, duchies are states almost at the point of self-governance, except for the limitations of the Imperial Charter and of the Lawbook, and the problem is that baronies still do too much, and that forces the hand of the duchies. I see this bill as a practical way to implement the natural continuation of a development that has brought us to decisions like the lump-sum per-Duchy tax system, the freedom for alliances between subdivisions, not to mention the original local prerogative principle. A development through a Shireroth with as few restrictions on the Duchies as possible.

[Jess]

No. Nothing need changing in my opinion. If you don't want baronies, don't use them. Its a historical division that in no way should be altered in the Charter or Lawbook.

Stupid new ideas...

[Erik Mortis]

Leave Baronies alone. I'll just admit. I won't even look at anything to the way of removing them.

[Arviður]

To be honest, I actually agree with Ari. I echo his sentiments.

Lord Straylight, K'Tzuni stands behind you!

[Ari Rahikkala]

I'm sorry to be so... demanding, Erik, but seriously, if you're going to oppose this bill because it removes baronies, you could at least point out the place where it removes baronies

[Santelran Rottsaa]

Erik, this bill doesn't remove baronies, it just makes Barons non-noble.

(I think it makes baronies more useless, though, honestly)

Whatever, I support it, I suppose.

[Ari Rahikkala]

I'd say it's even less than that, since as far as I'm concerned nobility is still pretty much going to come with baronhood by default. But only by default, so if someone really, really wants to call a position baron but not make it a noble one they can do it now. That's not the point of the bill, it just comes with the ability to call someone thane or freiherr or marquis and have it be a position of nobility.

[Arviður]

Come on, Dukes! Vote 'aye'!

[Jonas]

Come on, Dukes! Vote 'aye'!

I don't wanna!

[Arviður]

Why not? Seriously, I'm interested in hearing your objections.

[Jonas]

Barons are nobles. End of story.

[Arviður]

In that case they should sit in the Landsraad and elect the Prætor, too, by the words of the Charter.

[Jonas]

Excellent, so be it.

[Erik Mortis]

They did once. But during the Great Consolidation, we had to go to one Duke one Vote like the old days. I would support the recreation of the 10 Vote distribution system, and readmit Barons. But yes, barons are supposed to vote for the Praetor.

This bill removes Barons as nobles in all but name. Makes them meaningless and useless. The next step will be to remove their noble status outright. And it will come to that. Cause if we want this far, why not go further.

We should be making Baron more useful, not less. More meaningful, not less. We have a growing citizen base, we should be making more positions, not less. This bill is the sort of bill we should pass when we are shrinking as a nation.