Economy, and things. A ramble.

[Ari Rahikkala]

I've been thinking about posting about my support for voting credits for a while. I don't remember my original opinion regarding them (though it probably was opposition as part of my general opposition vs. micronational economies)... but I decided they're a good thing after I realised that they really can be a powerful tool to codify who's given the most to the community over time and who therefore should have the most say. "Powerful" here means that whereas you can become a respected member and thus have a lot of say simply by socialising and arguing and being cool, the economy can be used to reward those who make lasting contributions such as cultural work.

Then I read Imperial Proclamation Agni 2 and the following discussion again, especially this bit by Greg:

I know at times I can sound like a stubborn (spoiled) child, but really I just don't like economies because I believe first and formost that micronations should be about fun and storytelling, more than a complete simulation. Please keep in mind I mean no disrespect to you or anyone who supports it; it's a brilliant system in theory, and you did a good job implementing it, I just disagree with your conclusions about where it will lead us.

I caught something in this paragraph that he probably didn't intend to say, but that we know is true... if you contribute, and then yell about how much you've contributed, you'll be rewarded. Andreas has been entirely clear on this subject: He doesn't have time to follow every development in every duchy.

It seems like a small matter to notify MiniTrade about what you've contributed... but looks deceive. See how much money Elwynn got by being the only duchy to list pretty much everything of note that they did the last time. Similarly, although I haven't actually gone to the MiniTrade regarding my exploits, the amount of work I've done is very clearly documented in one place in the MiniInt forum, so I tend to get fairly large personal bounties.

I fully trust Andreas's fairness. I believe that any Shirithian who contributes and then goes to tell him about it will be rewarded appropriately. It's just that the second part isn't entirely effortless. It's that much work just to see what things of worth you and others have done in your duchy, and... well, I don't know if this applies to non-Finns, but I would feel uneasy about requesting compensation for tasks that seem "small" to me. Or if they're a kind of task that other people haven't requested compensation for yet.

If there were a way to make effort and contribution directly lead to appropriate compensation, I'd be writing it into a bill right now. I don't think such a thing exists, though. If macronationalism had one we'd have a lot less sweatshops around the world. I do know that having more people awarding bounties is not the solution - while I guess I like having an economy these days, I don't think we should go around spending half the nation's resources on keeping it running. Likewise I don't think raising the bar on what things to award bounties for would solve the problem - different people simply contribute differently, and even a little at a time, if it's created for the ages, should be rewarded appropriately.

Also,

Despite the above, I don't like the fact that VCs were voted out. I guess I should have been around more to shoot the bill down . There are just so few things to spend money on outside taxes, and so many ways to contribute to get money (if only from the government). I don't like taxes in Shireroth - a good, bounty-worthy contribution is supposed to be a lasting benefit to the nation, but the tax system is effectively a bias toward rewarding recent contributions more. VC buying was not quite popular enough to replace the tax system (most duchies would spend less than half on it of what they would have spent on taxes, and indeed my plan was to only spend a tenth), but it would have helped Andreas in his effort to levy taxes as rarely as possible (remember when he went through the bank and returned the money from dead accounts to circulation? That was pretty much the reason why he didn't need to levy taxes that month.)

We still haven't come up with a system of economic voting that makes actual economic sense (i.e. you have to *spend*, or invest, money to gain voting power, unlike Hesam's system) and that doesn't have situations where one duke can gain power over others by simply timing their opening of votes and buying of voting power correctly. If someone does come up with one, I expect I'll be for it.

Also,

Incidentally, I'm sick of people opposing economic voting simply because they have some sort of a hang-up against bribery or something. Look where the money comes from, folks! If you want a louder voice in the Landsraad, contribute to the nation and tell MiniTrade about it. The bountifying process is completely public. Now if we had a large private sector with complicated economic effects arising from it, things might get more complicated, but... even in the case that we actually managed to make that happen somehow (maybe if we annexed half of Micras and had them all run companies here ), I don't think the reasons why voting by money would be a bad idea macronationally would apply. Au contraire. I think it'd be just the way to make the system really interesting.

[Andreas the Wise]

Thanks Ari, I appreciate this.

[Kaiser Agni I]

As a means of government, I never cared for VC's. But as economics, it worked. Good show Ari.

[Allot]

As a relative newcomer, it seems to me that the problem is that no one is spending money (cough cough DUKES ), and more importantly that there are not enough things to spend money on. The paid services in Shireroth (to a newcomer) seem to be mostly gravitated towards the Dukes and the rich. Therefore --> stagnant economy. The answer is not to reform the entire legislative system, but rather to use what is already in place to get money flowing again. Andreas has already come up with an idea for this: Guilds. If people are interested in a certain aspect of Shirithian life (example: me and the SSHIT), then they will spend money. Now all I have to do is come up with a way for people to pay money to the SSHIT for certain services rendered, and then I spend it... well, this isn't an economics lesson. In short, effort + service that people want = money flow.

SCIRA is also a tool that is vastly underused for all its power. Do you realize the economic power a war (even a rec-war) holds? Troops + supplies + lawyers to fight over settlement =

I disagree with VC, although perhaps I have not been around here long enough to know what is truly in the interests of Shireroth.

Let's try to think of ways to use the current system (Andreas') before gunning it down.

Also, once Mike gets out from under his rock, we can get started having rec-trials! But that's another idea...

[Kaiser Agni I]

actually.. the Guild system was first put forth by Mike and I for a legal profession, then expanded.

The problem is, I don't know how well Guilds will take off. Not sure how many guilds there can be...

hehe.. Maybe I should make a Coders Guild...

[Harvey Steffke]

I've been sort of keeping in a few thoughts about the economy, and this seems like an okay to just gush them out.

First, we don't have an economy. At all. I'm not really sure what to call this thing. It follows none of the rules for an actual economies. Economies exist to facilitate trade between parties. But this thing we have here has nothing to trade. We all learned that goods and services-based economies fail because our simulations are too small to have enough products out on the market to support the system. This means that money has no purpose other than to move itself around. The end result of having 0 Erb or a million is essentially nil. I don't have a bank account, and honestly I don't see the point in getting one.

It's sort of a cross between a meritocracy and a role-playing simulation. As a meritocracy though, it's terrible. The voting credit thing had no many logical loopholes that it was fundamentally broken from the get-go. Since only dukes could vote, and votes were determined by how much money the duke had, Erb was mind-blowingly valuable to dukes and completely worthless to non-dukes. There was no reason for dukes not put insane taxes up to gather as much currency as possible, and no reason for non-dukes to care about the taxes, since money to them was inherently worthless.

Now don't get me wrong; I think a true meritocracy would be an amazing system for a micronation to have. It was very tempting to make Nelaga into one but my nostalgia won out. Heck though, maybe there is still time. In a meritocracy, Erb could be valuable to everyone since it could represent real political power. People would be able to "buy" things that had real value with their money, like a baron or duke's seat or votes in the Landsraad. There would be all sorts of shady deals, like giving the Kaiser a big gift in hopes he makes you his successor, so that when he steps down he'd be very politically well-off during your rule. The possibilities are real and, though not quite endless, plentiful enough to be very interesting for a long time.

But I say all this in speculation and not as a real proposal because (now we're getting to treasonous part) if there's one thing I've learned about Shireroth in its past many years of existance it is that it doesn't like to make really big changes to itself. Voting credits and territory reshuffles, sure, but that's minor stuff, mere spice of life. Shireroth cannot and will not become a meritocracy because, to do it, you'd have to change some important stuff that would make people uncomfortable. Not enough to make it not-Shireroth; we could still have a Kaiser, and Landsraad, and duchies. But enough to make some old-timers protest and fail any bill you propose by voting or veto. I completely guarantee it. You'd have at least two "go to some other nation instead of trying to turn Shireroth into this" speeches until everyone gave up.

The fact is that Shireroth has kept itself active all this time by constantly creating and resolving the same problems. Do you people think these economy talks are a new subject? I was there when the concept of an intermicronational economy was suggested; I know this because I made the suggestion myself. I was one of the few that understood the ICEO forumulas. I've watched countless economic systems rise and fall, from Hau'oli 'Ena's stock-exchanges to Baracao's socialism, Jasonia's goods-based and fantasy-event roleplays, Shireroth's gift systems and voting credits, and Audentior's investigations into bank fraud. It's not that any of these systems were outright bad. It's just that people got bored and recycled some of the old systems for (as far as I can tell) no particular reason, and the newer members of Shireroth had enough energy and naivety to think that whatever was currently happening was something new and exciting. Which is sort of how we got to the point we're at right now, even though this is like our fourth or fifth time standing on this spot.

So please forgive me for lacking the enthusiasm needed to play economic games any longer. If someone can come up with something new and unique that breaks the circles we've been walking in for close to ten years, my ears are open. Until then, I'm just not interested in crunching numbers and keeping track of fake and trivial currency. If you get your jollies doing things like that, by all means continue. But please don't try to drag me in just because your system works better with more living bodies.

[Austi_Scot]

I would agree with Harvey on many things.

When the discussion was going on about whether or not the VCC system should be abolished I suggested we allow bribes to the Dukes for a vote and even encourage it.

Within my Barony I have made a decree that allows any citizen to fight for a Noble Title, up to and including my own title of Baron. Yes, I have put my title (which I like very very very [have I said very yet] very much!) on the block. I have tied gaining that title to the economy of Shireroth although it wouldn´t take much investment to make an attempt at being a Count or the Baron. I have no authority to tie that plan to higher levels of Nobility.

Before I came back there was already the legal profession in place here. I hired a lawyer and made a long term contractual agreement.

Shireroth also had the economy tied to the military complex when I arrived here this time. I have opened an Orbat shop and as soon as I have Erb I made a purchase and offered financial instruments to the public with the intention of starting some economic activity.

I made an agreement to purchase the stock exchange but had to wait until I had enougErb to pay the exorbitant price asked by the previous owner - put I paid it knowing the profit may never return my investment.
I have spent almost all the Erb I got, on the day I got the Erb, and I have plans that call for me spending almost all I get. If you have Erb, I say spend it - heck if you leave you can´t take it with you.

In the Duchy where I live we have started an economy that is based on the MITO system now in use for international trading. Although it isn´t large enough yet, it was designed to start small and grow. No one is forced to be involved in that but I believe you are welcome to join if you wish. Also it has the seed of possibility for economics between people in different micronations who also use the MITO economic system. (Probably have to start with the barter economic system - but hey, it has the possibility.)

The idea of professions and classes to teach professions was here before I joined again and is now under more discussion. The idea of a guild system within that whole framework is also now on the board.

It is my view that if someone wanted to attempt to bribe a Duke to vote a certain way they should go ahead and do that - I suggest a PM or other form of contact rather than an openly posted offer to bribe, but hey - go for it. The activity that follows something like that might be very interesting.

There are now proposals to put museums, expeditions, festivals, rec-trials and SHIIT within the economy.

There is a proposal to form a guild with a real world service that would serve in our hobby - programmers or something of that nature (I´m not one so forgive my lack of knowledge here). Cartography is something many people already do without it being part of the economy.

My point is that no one has to be a part of the economy, enjoy micronations doing the things you like to do, RPG´ing, just talking and making friends, being a member of a government, rec-war , anything you like - and if you don´t want to be part of something going on, then doin Shireroth and in micronations.

And if there is something you would like to have done and have it part of some kind of `economic activity´ within micronations, then either just do it or purpose it. Make a post, "hey, I can do this XXXXXXX. I´ll charge XX Erb to do it for you." Or "hey, I want this XXXXXXX done. Anyone here willing, I´ll pay XX Erb´.

Remember, it´s not against the law unless there´s a law against it.

Or if you want just do it without the economics tied to it, that´s ok too.

[Kaiser Agni I]

This discussion pleases me.

And Harvey, I don't really disagree. But at the same time, each time we go through the loop we learn things. But the basic lack of needs does kinda make the economy(or whatver) exist only for its own sake.

[Harvey Steffke]

No doubt we learn things. I just wish we knew what to do with what we're learning. I haven't totally given up on the economy as an idea. I just don't know what to do to break the cycle, and it looks like nobody else does either.

[Austi_Scot]

Is micronationalism a hobby or a game, or is it both - ah an old discussion.

Is backgammon a game or a hobby? There is a cribbage club where I live, it´s a member of U.S.A. Cribbage club. There is a chess club, a renaissance club, and several card playing clubs of one game or another.

What the heck do those people have after having played the same game for years. As a matter of fact there are now several variations of backgammon games that people have come up with. The no hit game, the build a blockade game and yet other variations. What the heck, can´t these people learn to do it differently?

Nothing wrong with a new way to play the same game, but heck nothing wrong with playing the regular game of backgammon.

[Andreas the Wise]

No doubt we learn things. I just wish we knew what to do with what we're learning. I haven't totally given up on the economy as an idea. I just don't know what to do to break the cycle, and it looks like nobody else does either.

I'm learning quite a lot, personally. My view of micronational economics has completely changed several times from that I had a year ago. If anyone's read my papers on economics, they'd have noticed that.

I'll agree, I've seen a lot of things fail. I'll also agree the primary problem is that nobody *needs* anything. And I'll be the first to admit not everyone likes quantifying things like me. And quite importantly, I've learnt that economic systems are very dependent on the particular nation and time, and need to be willing to adapt if they are to succeed. Oh, and having a lot of people involved is good too.

But I've also seen some elements work marvellously well, in the right place. Bounties in Shireroth, for example - absolutely brilliant, works wonderfully for income allocation. We need something to spend on and a way to get money back to the government, but the bounties themselves work great.
Buying troops in CITRA too - Tokians and Novans enjoy recwars, and are quite prepared to save up money to buy troops. The way they get that money might not work perfectly (and the Tokians introducing a demilitarisation law really hasn't helped), but as a demandhing, CITRA works great. If I had to pick most successful economic model, I'd put my money on CITRA.

My enjoyment continues to be finding things that do work, even for a time, and working towards that eventual goal of an economy that works more than a month.

But I will agree with you 100% Harvey that anything you try to change in Shireroth there will be people who object. (And sometimes if you don't change there will be people who object). I have a way to solve the "Dukes only" VC problem [basically, each individual Duchy votes on how votes will be used among the Barons/Counts, who buy "duchy VCs" - all the money from those ducal VCs goes to the Duke to buy Duchal VCs. Of course, now I put it like that, that has the problem that the duke can't decide how to vote ... or the non-Duchal votes in the duchy aren't always honoured ... oh well] but it would stink of democracy and so never work.