Poll - Economy

[Andreas the Wise]

Gah. I'll do it by quasi-democracy. I reserve the right to ignore opinions expressed in this poll.

An economy is only going to work if people want to do whatever they can do with money. Generally, buying and selling goods and services with it isn't enough ... well, all economies have failed, so yeah.
I'm in the school of thought that people will be more willing to use an economy if there's something they value that the economy is tied to/based on. I'm also in the rarer (possibly 1) school of thought that says that such a thing needs to be considered based on the individual nation, their institutions, psyche etc.
I think that thing for Shireroth is voting. We have an active legislature, and we have bills go in that people care about the results of. Other popular options to base it on don't quite fit for Shireroth. War - we enjoy the odd civil war, but not like Toketi/Nova that we'd want the main basis of our economy war (it'd be a good side dish though). Posting - we post, but not such that we'd want to pay people based on their posting. Another thing we do well is culture and stories, but we already have that incorporated via bounties - we have our money earning system all set up, we just need a better thing to base spending on.
However, I also know that voting as a basis will only work if enough people care about votes in the Landsraad and support the idea of basing money on voting - whether that be erb=vote or 100 erb used to buy a vote or something else.

So, this poll is basically to ask that question.

EDIT: This poll is not the following:
Forcing you to decide one way
Choosing the specific Landsraad procedure we currently have
Assuming you're all economists
All about earning money.

It's just saying whether an economic link to the Landsraad encourages you to participate in the economy, or discourages. It could be the current system, the one Ari proposed (auction), the one I proposed (buying voting units, which avoids the hoarding problem) etc.

If linking the economy to voting discourages you to participate, or is against your ideological feelings, then please suggest something that you would participate for. If there's nothing that would help you participate in the economy, then ....

[Maksym Hadjimehmetov]

So, I vote no and I have the burden of proof put upon me? Feh.

[Andreas the Wise]

You don't have to prove it doesn't work for you, that's what's implied by you voting no. You do have to suggest a better system that'll work for more Shirithians ...

[Oroigawa Koreyasu]

That's an awful way to get people to agree with you. Not everyone knows economics, but they can certainly know when something isn't working very well.

[Andreas the Wise]

Corey, this poll isn't about whether the economy isn't working as a whole. It's about whether for you, on a personal level, the idea of earning money to increase your vote in the Landsraad isn't motivating you to participate in the economy. If it isn't, what would motivate you? This is not really economics. It's just statistics. I think there are just a few vocal nay-sayers and a lot of people the economy is working for ... and if that's the case, then I don't need to worry. But I'm checking. And I'm also canvassing the possibility that somebody other than me might actually have a brilliant idea now and then and find something that could replace voting that suits more Shirithians. If you think that its unlikely anyone else has brilliant ideas, well, I must be more optimistic than you. Or you haven't spent enough time around Bayen

[Malliki]

I think what will motivate me to make money is stuff to spend money on. Preferably stuff I need.
The causal arrow (at least IRL) is:
I want to survive -> survival costs money -> I make money
not
I make money -> I find something to spend it on

[Andreas the Wise]

Votes aren't worth spending on, then?

[Malliki]

They are.
I want to vote in the Landsraad -> voting costs money -> I make money

[Kaiser Loki III]

A pot-full of money fell in my lap. I gave a lot away. I'll give more away after I make my point.

P.S.- When do I get my Kaiserial bag of money?

I object to plutocracy on principal, even as plutocrat-in-chief.

[Malliki]

We focus on the wrong side of things. Instead of focusing on giving people money, we should be focusing on taking money from people.

[Kaiser Loki III]

Instead of focusing on giving people money, we should be focusing on taking money from people.

Mwahahahaha! THAT CAN BE ARRANGED!

Imperial Mock-Decree CCCXXXIII

TAX

90% of all bank accounts are hereby seized by the Kaiser. Dukes only have to give 50%. The Steward, the Kaiser, the Praetor, the Arbiter, and the Minister of Trade are exempt.

Be careful of what you wish for......

[Malliki]

Was my point that un-pointy?

[Kaiser Loki III]

Your point was pointy enough.

I'm just being obtuse.

[Oroigawa Koreyasu]

BUT YOU'RE SO ACUTE!

[Kaiser Loki III]

Thank you, thank you all!

(Bows to the crowd.)

[Andreas the Wise]

Your point is quite valid Mike, apart from the fact I didn't think we were focussing on getting money .... that's done by bounties, bounties work. No complaints there. Voting in either of the two new proposed ways is definitely about taking money ....

[Malliki]

Yes. That's what makes it better than the current system. The current system rewards hoarding, not keeping the money in circulation.

[Andreas the Wise]

So you like the new proposal

[Malliki]

More than the current system, I think. At least.

[Maksym Hadjimehmetov]

Instead of focusing on giving people money, we should be focusing on taking money from people.

That, Mike, is perhaps one of the single best posts on Micronational Economics I have seen for many moons.
As foul and depraved as it may sound, it's also a truism- phpBanks and soforth are easy, but citizens sometimes just can't find the time to start companies- I suppose an economy would work in Shireroth, where the legislature doesn't need the input of every citizen to function on a basic level- but people just don't have anything to spend their Erbs on.
Were nations to actually give a damn about the MCS resources map rather than just producing things out of the blue (regardless of the materials or not) then we'd have some basis for trade. That basis, sadly, is honesty with keeping to the MCS resources map. And people aren't prepared to do that.
The new system of trading Andreas has devised is interesting, but too complex for my taste. At the end of the day we all want something simple and effective. I never thought I'd hear myself saying this, but I actually miss Aerlig's MX2 bank... if Sander was still around he'd be able to sort something out.
The days of KR Schiffbau and all Gotzborg's economic advances are over.
It tells you something about the dire position of micronational economies these days, if practically all micronational governments have to resort to taxation in order to get any free flow of cash going at all...

[Andreas the Wise]

Sorry, did you just say my trade system was complex? My current system, complex?

Compared to what, exactly? Compared to previous incarnations its easier. Compared to Hesam's production economy its easier. Compared to a system where you have to decide what to do with the resources you get its easier .... so I'm kinda wondering, if this is complex, then how much easier can you get?

[Kaiser Loki III]

Look.

Compromise is the soul of politics.

Upper House (Landsraad Proper) One Duke, one vote.

Lower House (Imperial Kehl) Barons vote with money, or buy /auction votes, or consult the I Ching.

I think this is fair. The economists get an experiment, and the rest of us g equity (no pun intended).

Erik gets a Kehl, and the Barons get some responsibilty / say-so.

The Kaiser is the safety valve.

[Malliki]

Sorry, but no deal. At least for me. Reasons:

1. In a feudal system it is illogical for a lower tier (barons) to have power in a higher tier. In Shireroth, Dukes have power. In each Duchy, the barons can have power. In each barony, the counts.

2. Erik has a Kehl already.

3. The only one pushing for a bicameral system is Erik AFAIK. As for the economy and compromise, why not try buying votes first before making a change this big?

[Kaiser Loki III]

(As noted in the other thread.)

[Maksym Hadjimehmetov]

Bicameral system- no. Far too bureaucratic and what would it do? Veto or delay Landsraad Bills?
I'm probably wrong, but that power is invested in the position of Kaiser anyway, isn't it?

Sorry, did you just say my trade system was complex? My current system, complex?

Yes.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

3. The only one pushing for a bicameral system is Erik AFAIK.

In fact I think he said somewhere that even he's given up on that now.

[Andreas the Wise]

I'm not a big fan of bicameralism either ....

And Max, if its complex, what did you want then?

[Maksym Hadjimehmetov]

I want Sander back to make a nice, snazzy new cross between the phpBank and MX2 which facilitates easy internal trading and intermicronational trade as well.
It would save us the tedium of these endless economic discussions (no offence, but micronational economy is kind of lost without phpBank- or at the very least a ProBoards cash mod... ugh...). While you've obviously put a lot of work into your system, Andreas, it'd be more accessible and understandable were it in the form of some php software like Sander's banking systems were.
The fact is, we're all lazy and want some way to become decadent capitalist pigs at the touch of a button... rather than actually thinking

[Oroigawa Koreyasu]

Shireroth has a php-based bank...

[Andreas the Wise]

I want Sander back to make a nice, snazzy new cross between the phpBank and MX2 which facilitates easy internal trading and intermicronational trade as well.
It would save us the tedium of these endless economic discussions (no offence, but micronational economy is kind of lost without phpBank- or at the very least a ProBoards cash mod... ugh...). While you've obviously put a lot of work into your system, Andreas, it'd be more accessible and understandable were it in the form of some php software like Sander's banking systems were.
The fact is, we're all lazy and want some way to become decadent capitalist pigs at the touch of a button... rather than actually thinking

I'm really not sure it would. You'd need almost 40 currencies (and that's just for resources and trade credits) and it'd take far too long to code. Excel does everything we need .... (and for Sakat's sake why would you use a Proboards cash mod? phpbb is the only way to go ... )
EDIT: Unless you're just talking about MICEO ... yeah, that would be better having php input and stuff but again, not the time, and it doesn't take too long for me to do it manually ....