Claim Cut off Date

[Hesam Jayatar]

Your Honour,
The Minister of Trade,

In consideration of the current issue of claims and bounties I've come to the conclusion that the best means of dealing with the legitimacy of claims is as follows:

- That no claim be honoured citing events before the initial economic decrees and legislation made during the reign of Kaiser Hasan I.

- That claims citing the decision of the rogue Jacobus during the issue of succession not be honoured.

- That henceforth, a citizen making a claim upon taking a higher office in the Empire must hold that office for a minimum of 3 weeks before the claim is given. This is so as to prevent short term appointment. But that claims which fall within the two previous conditions which pertain to the time period between the reign of Kaiser Hasan and previous to this post be honoured.

- That your suggestion of a 10 erb bounty for new citizens be adopted and that the 50erb given to those new citizens be maintained as a measure against monopoly.

- That the cut off date for any claim from the time period of Hasan I to the Present be one week from this post. That all claims from the period stated be deemed invalid after that time.

- That bounties claimed on works of art (graphic, written or coded) be judged by the peers of the originator as to its value in erb.

- That the standard bounty given for an independent work of art be set at 20 erb, negotiable by the judgement of the originators peers.

- That works specifically commissioned by the Crown (whether graphic, written or coded) be commissioned at a pre-determined value. To be paid after the commission is fulfilled.

- That the standard grant given for works commissioned by the Crown be hire than bounties given for pre-produced works. (ie works not specifically commissioned by the Crown)

- That bounties are NOT guaranteed, but can be given out periodically to reward works of culture and to stimulate the economy during times of stagnancy.

- That the initial issue of 5000 erb was never intended to be the ONLY issue. Recognising that The Crown account is burdened and that the number of claims vs the supply of capital is unbalanced, an additional issue of 5000 erb be produced and deposited into the Crown account. That the total amount of 10 000 erb should be sufficient to balance government spending, promote economic growth and supply the general population with enough revenue for prosperity.

- That these points, with revision be formatted into a Bill and presented to The Landsraad as soon as possible.

[Andreas the Wise]

Your Honour,
The Minister of Trade,

In consideration of the current issue of claims and bounties I've come to the conclusion that the best means of dealing with the legitimacy of claims is as follows:

- That no claim be honoured citing events before the initial economic decrees and legislation made during the reign of Kaiser Hasan I.

- That claims citing the decision of the rogue Jacobus during the issue of succession not be honoured.

- That henceforth, a citizen making a claim upon taking a higher office in the Empire must hold that office for a minimum of 3 weeks before the claim is given. This is so as to prevent short term appointment. But that claims which fall within the two previous conditions which pertain to the time period between the reign of Kaiser Hasan and previous to this post be honoured.

How does this pertain to Harold? Apart from that, I agree with these proposals.

- That your suggestion of a 10 erb bounty for new citizens be adopted and that the 50erb given to those new citizens be maintained as a measure against monopoly.

Already done.

- That the cut off date for any claim from the time period of Hasan I to the Present be one week from this post. That all claims from the period stated be deemed invalid after that time.

A very good idea

- That bounties claimed on works of art (graphic, written or coded) be judged by the peers of the originator as to its value in erb.

- That the standard bounty given for an independent work of art be set at 20 erb, negotiable by the judgement of the originators peers.

- That works specifically commissioned by the Crown (whether graphic, written or coded) be commissioned at a pre-determined value. To be paid after the commission is fulfilled.

- That the standard grant given for works commissioned by the Crown be higher than bounties given for pre-produced works. (ie works not specifically commissioned by the Crown)

- That bounties are NOT guaranteed, but can be given out periodically to reward works of culture and to stimulate the economy during times of stagnancy.

Probably acceptable. 20 erb is a lot (considered against the amount of money a new citizen gets). Considering the nature of single claimable things and whole sets (such as Scott's set of posts in the Recwar) I'd rather set the standard bounty at 15 and work up for greater works. Peer judgement does resolve the issue of how your or my works can be judged without allegations of corruption.
Yes, Crown commissioned work should be at a pre-determined value higher than claimed bounties, certainly. And yes, definitely don't guarantee them.

- That the initial issue of 5000 erb was never intended to be the ONLY issue. Recognising that The Crown account is burdened and that the number of claims vs the supply of capital is unbalanced, an additional issue of 5000 erb be produced and deposited into the Crown account. That the total amount of 10 000 erb should be sufficient to balance government spending, promote economic growth and supply the general population with enough revenue for prosperity.

I'm actually against this. By my reckoning we've paid out basically everyone who needs it, and have 1000 left. I think this is a good place to be. It protects us against, in the future, a large amount of money coming into circulation and driving up prices. I was considering a way to get most money in circulation and leave the government with a low amount so that the giving out of it didn't influence circulation too much ... and I think we're in that ideal position now. But we do need to decide taxes clearly, and depending on how that goes (and how many cultural claims we have) we can review this position in, say, a month or so, to see how much erb we think we need then.

- That these points, with revision be formatted into a Bill and presented to The Landsraad as soon as possible.

I'm not sure how many need be in a Bill and how many don't. I think the guidelines for bounties should be in a bill (with the proviso the Minister for Trade can change the standard amount for a bounty at any time, with Kaiseral approval). The proviso's for claiming re: 3 week minimum should be. But the details about "claiming before Hasan's reign" etc I think are better just as Ministry policy than in a bill, because they are, by their very nature, one-off.

[Hesam Jayatar]

Could you draft a counter proposal according to your wishes? We can refine it and then use it as "standard operating procedure". Once its posted, we can ask The Kaiser to approve it.

[Malliki]

I'm not sure how many need be in a Bill and how many don't. I think the guidelines for bounties should be in a bill (with the proviso the Minister for Trade can change the standard amount for a bounty at any time, with Kaiseral approval). The proviso's for claiming re: 3 week minimum should be. But the details about "claiming before Hasan's reign" etc I think are better just as Ministry policy than in a bill, because they are, by their very nature, one-off.

As long as you don't violate the Charter, DecreeBook or LawBook, you have complete control of all affairs to do with the economy and trade. I also think that the Kaiseral approval is implied when a minister acts, unless the Kaiser says otherwise.

[Hesam Jayatar]

Well if it's Kosher with the Judex, I think we're set. All we need to do is agree to the contents and formalize it.

[Malliki]

I would consider the issuing of more Erbs to require Kaiseral approval or an act of the Landsraad, but otherwise I see no problems with the ministry guidelines. They can be repealed or altered by decree or Landsraad act anyway.

[Andreas the Wise]

Thanks for that Mike.

Right ... counterproposal. Copying everything I approved of yours, and adding a bit.

That the following be adopted as official MiniTrade policy henceforth, considering that the MiniTrade has full power to make conventions with regard to the economy:

Legitimacy of Claims
- That no claim be honoured citing events before the initial economic decrees and legislation made during the reign of Kaiser Hasan I.

- That claims citing the decision of Jacobus during the issue of succession not be honoured.

- That the cut off date for any claim from the time period of Hasan I to the Present be one week from this post. That all claims from the period stated be deemed invalid after that time.

- That henceforth, a citizen making a claim upon taking a higher office in the Empire must hold that office for a minimum of 3 weeks before the claim is given. This is so as to prevent short term appointment.

- That all claims, past, present and future, be subjected to this criteria.

- That all payouts are at the discretion of the Minister, and under the Fraud Bill he may, in consultation with the Junior Minister, deem a claim illegitimate, even if it meets the criteria above. Appeals may be made to the Imperial Judex about this decision, but the decision may only be judged on the merit of evidence, not on any inconvenience caused.

Bounties
- That a 10 erb bounty be established for bringing a new citizen to Shireroth.

- That a bounty may be given for articles in the Wiki, depending on the length, accuracy and amount of articles done.

- That this article bounty shall be set at 1 erb

- That bounties claimed on works of art (graphic, written or coded) be judged by the peers of the originator as to its value in erb.

- That the standard bounty given for an independent work of art be set at 20 erb, negotiable by the judgement of the originators peers.

- That works specifically commissioned by the Crown (whether graphic, written or coded) be commissioned at a pre-determined value. To be paid after the commission is fulfilled.

- That the standard grant given for works commissioned by the Crown be higher than bounties given for pre-produced works. (ie works not specifically commissioned by the Crown)

- That all bounties are NOT guaranteed, but can be given out periodically to reward works of culture, building up the nation etc. and to stimulate the economy during times of stagnancy.

Further Issue of Erb
- That the matter of further issue of Erb shall be examined at the start of September, based on how the economy has done up to that point, and the amount of money in the Crown account.

Taxation
- That there be established a "Safety Amount", initially established at 500 erb, whereby when the Crown account falls below such an amount, a general tax is triggered.

- That the tax be administered by the Minister or Junior Minister when they see the Safety Amount has been reached, without requiring individuals to send the funds to the Ministry themselves.

- That the tax be rendered on all citizens of the Republic at 20 erb per person. If someone is unable to pay the tax, the money will be taken out of their business account (if applicable). If a person is still unable to pay the tax, it is at the minister's discretion whether they will be rendered exempt, or whether their Duke must make up the shortfall.
OR
- That the tax be rendered on each Duchy within Shireroth at a rate of 100 erb per Duke. The Duke may then tax zir subjects as ze sees fit to recoup the loss. If a Duke is unable to pay from his personal account, he shall be issued a notice of this and have one week from the issuance of the notice to raise the necessary funds within zir Duchy.

- That the level of taxation may be changed at the discretion of the Minister, as long as he warns the populace at least 1 week before taxation at the new levels.

I say OR because I'm not sure which is the best way to manage it. I think we should aim at getting 500 erb back each tax time. We clearly get that with the Duchy tax, and it keeps voting power even, but makes it harder for Dukes with few citizens. I think we'd get close to 500 with the 20 per person one, but it can punish prosperous Duchies, and also is easier for people to cheat on (ie all put your money into one person's account and hope to be called "exempt).

You're welcome to comment or counter-counter propose any of this. Under this, btw, Harold would not be paid out as Steward.

[Malliki]

(ie all put your money into one person's account and hope to be called "exempt).

That would probably be called tax evasion.

[Hesam Jayatar]

I Think taxes would have to be decided by The Kaiser or the Landsraad. I don't think we have the authority to do that.

This looks good, but I don't see how Harald cannot be paid out now. His claim falls within the allotted time?

[Malliki]

Correct. I e taxes to be mandated by law, not by ministry guidelines.

[Andreas the Wise]

I Think taxes would have to be decided by The Kaiser or the Landsraad. I don't think we have the authority to do that.

This looks good, but I don't see how Harald cannot be paid out now. His claim falls within the allotted time?

He was undisputed Steward for three weeks?

[Hesam Jayatar]

The wording I used was that from this point forth. It's not retroactive.


edit: I read it again, I was correct, the wording is "Henceforth....."

[Andreas the Wise]

You're right, henceforth ... fine, we'll pay him. But he's going down in the book as "don't pay any more money unless he becomes Kaiser"

[Hesam Jayatar]

Makes sense to me. I think it's only fair.

[Andreas the Wise]

Considering I've just approved payouts to Harold (which puts the Crown at 600) and and to Jacobus (putting the crown at 200) ... I'm thinking we add 2000 more erbs to circulation. Only 2000. Why? That gives the government enough money to play with and add a few more citizens in without triggering lots of taxation ... but it also keeps us fairly close to having most of the money in circulation. With this extra 2000, we can probably push the government tax trigger to 1000 erb left in the Crown Account, and that leaves us 1200 still to deal with bounties and so on before we need to tax. I'm very worried about putting 5000 in because it leaves lots of money sitting with the Crown that could either leave us tempted to spend it innapropriately, or it all comes out a few months later and suddenly the price of everything doubles to compensate. I think operating close to capacity will lead for a more stable economy.

I also propose we move the tax debate to Landsraad gate and see what the nobles think, and get that legislation passed. We also need to consider the salaries of ministers (and junior ministers) and we might as well lump it all into one financial reform bill.

[Malliki]

Just for clarity:

Additional Erb may be added to circulation as required by the authority of The Kaiser or by Act of landsraad.

[Andreas the Wise]

I know ... hence why we take it Landsraad ...