Redividing the land

[Jonas]

Arbiter,

I will point you to a topic made by me in Kildare. We aren't sure that a Duke can redivide his own Duchy.

Maybe you can help in this matter, ow Mighty Arbiter!

[Malliki]

Doesn't anybody here read the laws? I know the answer, but it would be rude for me to answer a question put to the Arbiter.

[Jonas]

I read the law and I know that Counties aren't even named in the lawbook.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Updating the section on duchies in the LawBook would be a good start

[Jonas]

I have absolut power

a. Any Duke has complete power to do whatever zie wishes within zir Duchy, within zir restrictions.
b. Any Duke may place restrictions upon Barons within zir Duchy.

[Malliki]

I would say that the borders of Duchies and Baronies are under the sole authority of the Kaiser and Landsraad. Counties are under the authority of the Duke and Baron, with the Duke having overruling powers (and technically also under the Kaiser and Landsraad). But, as I said, I'm not the Arbiter.

[Erik Mortis]

Off hand... This hasn't been done to much.. Historically a duke could create and dissolve baronies. But I think under modern usage, the Kaiser has to approve of Barony creation. counties are not addressed under Imperial Law at all.

I think at most you need a rubber stamp from the Kaiser or the Landsraad.

Mike, what is your view on this?

[Malliki]

Wow, I'm asked.

1. The Charter is the supreme law. Second comes Imperial Decrees and third Acts of the Landsraad.

2. It is clear that both the Kaiser and the Landsraad can create and disband subdivisions (Chapter II, Section C of the Charter). The question is whether Dukes can redefine the borders of Baronies and/or Counties, as well as create and disband said subdivisions.

3. Duchies and Baronies are created by the Kaiser or the Landsraad. Therefore, any action by a Duke or a Baron to redefine the borders of said subdivisions without proper consent would be a violation of the supremacy of the Kaiser and, under him/her, the Landsraad.

4. Counties are not recognized by the Imperial Government. No law or decree has been made to my knowledge regarding counties. Therefore, a Duke, or a Baron with the Duke's consent, may create, disband or redefine the borders of any county, as long as the borders of the baronies and duchies are not affected.

That would be my opinion now. Any thoughts?

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Wow, so very centralised. Considering how when this place first resurrected I distinctly recall someone (Erik?) complaining about the Landsraad interfering in the internal affairs of a certain Duchy - probably Brookshire - I don't really agree.

The way I've always seen it is Kaiser is Kaiser of Shireroth. Duke is Kaiser of his Duchy. Baron is Kaiser of his Barony. Landsraad and Kaiser lay down laws which apply to the whole country. So if the Kaiser wants to step in and overrule a Duke, Baron or even Count, that's cool. A Duke can overrule a Baron, but only one in his Duchy; if he has a problem with another Duke's Baron, he talks to the other Duke, and if an agreement cannot be achieved, the matter is brought to the Kaiser. Works on every level too - so two Barons have an argument over a County in one Barony, the matter is brought before the Duke of that Duchy. But at any point the Kaiser can do whatever he wants. Power flows down from Zir Niftiness and at each level the nobility take a bit for themselves.

Edit: Oh, forgot to mention. I don't think the Landsraad has any place in appointing Nobles or granting Nobles land, or redefining lands, except if we completely change everything and it would simply be easier to do it all in one law or something. Kaiser's privilege.

I don't know if that's how its described in any Charters or Lawbooks but I think that's how it should be.

[Malliki]

The LawBook regulates subdivisions. The Charter grants the Kaiser and Landsraad the ability to create and dissolve subdivisions. What you are talking about, arbitration, already exists in that a Duke acts as arbiter in his Duchy and a Baron in his Barony. Regardless of what we would like the law to be, it is what it is until it is changed. As a Duke you can introduce legislation in the Landsraad. The Landsraad may interfere in a Duchy whenever it so chooses, since the Imperial Government is superior to the duchies.

[Malliki]

BTW, I may be hired to draft laws and/or advise on legal matters for a small (haha) sum of erbs.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

I'm pretty sure the Lawbook was not consulted when Vorpmadal was moved from Yardistan to Brookshire, or when Lac Glacei was Bailiwickified (or even incorporated into Yardistan as a floating territory), or when the Barony of Absentia was created. In other words - subdivisions change all the time without the Landsraad noticing, or caring, or needing to.

These are all examples from Yardistan - but that's only because this is where my attention is focused. I'm sure it happens all over Shireroth.

Edit: Oh, and yes, the Landsraad is superior to the Duchies I suppose, but it is still the Kaiser's place to appoint Dukes. Even then the Kaiserial tradition of a line of succession has been carried over into most of the Imperial Republic's subdivisions - whereby even without the Kaiser's nod or the Landsraad's notification a Ducal crown has changed hands, e.g. (again) Yardistan, when Jacobus left the Ducal throne in favour of yours truly. The only notification was to the omnipotent MiniInt and that was to do with Landsraad posting privileges and moderation.

[Kaiser Loki II]

this was approved by the Landsraad.

1- The Imperial Republic of Shireroth does hereby annex the following territories yielded to the Imperial Republic:

Cognito, Lac Glacei, Absentia, Kloss, Loreley, the Principality of Stromblum, (encompassing the three duchies of Lorelei, Edelweiss and Heathersland), the area designated as the Freimark, Vivaldia, Alara, Alterra, Aspyxnia, Greater Baldonios, Burnisia, Edan, Formiga, Jaris, and Cocoanut Grove.

2- That the Landsraad urges His Niftiness to empower representatives of Shireroth to negotiate internationally accepted boundaries of these territories.

3- That these territories be initially assigned to the Duchy of Yardistan by right of conquest, as our brave warriors stand in the midst of the lands as their bounds were of old.

My Brothers, while it is my most fervent wish that these territories be restored to us as they were of old, I am not unaware of the sweep of history, and the migration of peoples. Peoples, who although they may not have the right and ancientry of the Imperial Republic, have established themselves, have built nations and distinct communites, and have earned the respect of more ancient peoples.

I do not intend for this opportunity to engender serious conflict. The scope and boundaries of these territories may certainly be subject to interpretation and negotiation. (Or perhaps traded for other areas.) The is a lot of green space on the map, space that should be coloured for us.

This is how we got Lac Glacei. Absentia was broken out because we found some of it's original land to be available.

Friends had placed claims on the original Territories (of LG&C), and we don't want to go to war over any of this.

Section 3 is what gave it to Yardistan. Since it was essentially my stuff, I wanted it in my Duchy. Lac Glacei was the name last used in Shireroth for it, so we de-archived the ancient forum.

Mors V was agreeable, as we had just lost Vorpmadal to Brookshire.

Which reminds me, Ryan wanted some of the names back. I glommed onto them when he retroceeded Lac Glacei to me.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Well, that's that then. But the other points still stand. The fact is that it clearly isn't procedure these days to add the baggage of needless - truly needless - bureaucracy to every rejiggification of land distributions in our Duchies. If the laws state otherwise, they'll need to be changed sometime.

[Kaiser Loki II]

Write it up, I'd decree it. Although the Landsraad might be more politic at this time.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

I chose to put it through the Landsraad. Debate is necessary. I want to see if people think how I think.

[Kaiser Loki II]

Wise.

I did give the names back to Ryan that I promised to (Decree 289).

That makes these nonterritorial territories part of Lac Glacei.

Cognito, Lac Glacei, Kloss, Loreley, the area designated as the Freimark, Vivaldia, Alara, Alterra, Aspyxnia, Greater Baldonios, Burnisia, Edan, Formiga, Jaris, and Cocoanut Grove.

[hypatias mom]

This may be entirely too small an issue, but when the Duke is given authority to "rejigger" counties, does it also mean that adding in another, related county to the same barony is also permitted? At some time in prehistotry, North and South Novi Dalmacjia were divided. I don't even know in which barony South N.D. is located--it has never been spelled out. My Duke wishes to join the two Dalmacjias into one, and annex it to my barony. Is this also permitted without Landsraad ruling or Kaisereal appoval? The Duchy map is obscure on this point.

[Erik Mortis]

Hmmmm. Mike is correct in all his evaluation. Though I do point out, as Arbiter, and even as Kaiser (when I was) I tend to have a loose hand when it comes to the Duchies. But as the law stands, only the Kaiser and Landsraad can create or destroy a Duchy.

On that note, It doesn't say anything about reconfiguring. So...One could interpret this, taking into account ease of governance and tradition, that a Duke can reconfigure his internal subdivisions as he sees fit, as long as no baronies are destroyed in the process.

[hypatias mom]

Thank you. That is exactly the answer we were hoping to hear.

[Malliki]

I agree with Erik. I tend to have a bit of a legalistic viewpoint, not taking tradition and such things into account. I'm working on that.

[Jonas]

It's legal now

[Erik Mortis]

It's okey. With 8 years of history, there is a lot to consider. Most of the time I go with the "Yes you can" motto, unless something clearly states you can't, or it's a horrible idea.

[Malliki]

As pointed out by Kaiser Ayreon, the of the Imperial Judex, Chapter II, D, 2, c. of the LawBook allows Dukes to abolish a Barony within their Duchy.