Procedures of the Landsraad 3236

[Erik Mortis]

The Procedures of the Landsraad shall be rewritten as followed to clean up the system, and make it adhere to the restrictions of the Imperial Charter.

Procedures of the Landsraad

1. Members of the Landsraad
Membership in the Landsraad is determined in accordance with the Imperial Charter and the recognized noble titles, as outlined in the Imperial Lawbook. Only Dukes or their appointed Emissaries are considered Voting Members of the Landsraad.

2. Bills
The Landsraad passes changes to the LawBook. Each bill is presented in the form of an unambiguous change to the LawBook, and must have a name used by no bill presented before it. Any Voting Member of the Landsraad, the Kaiser, and the Praetor, can present a bill for voting.

3. Voting Procedure
After a bill has been presented, there is a period of exactly four days (96 hours) during which the members of the Landsraad can vote on it. Each Voting Member has one vote which he or she may cast in any unambiguous way to represent a vote of aye or nay, on any bill during the voting period. A vote only applies to a bill exactly as it has been presented. At the end of the period, the Praetor counts the votes, announces the result, and if the ayes outnumber the nays, updates the LawBook with the changes.

4. The Praetor
The Praetor is appointed in accordance with the Imperial Charter and has the rights and obligations established therein.

5. Speech
The Kaiser, any Voting Member of the Landsraad, and the Praetor, can freely express their opinion on any bill presented in the Landsraad. Imperial Ministers may speak on bills involving their ministry. The Imperial Arbiter may speak on bills to alleviate potential legal contradictions and/or violations, and/or when an official legal opinion is requested. Those without right to speak within the Landsraad may voice their opinion at the Landsraad Front Gate.

wiki copy: http://www.shireroth.org/shirewiki/Proc ... sraad_3236

[Erik Mortis]

Brookshire Votes Aye.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Straylight AYE. It's a lot better than what we used to have...

[Jonas]

Kildare votes Aye!

[Kaiser Hasan I]

As Kaiser I veto this bill as half of the Economic Bill has passed this bill will further complicate the proceedures of the Landsraad.

[Jonas]

*Sigh*

The procedures aren't passed (yet) and how more I think about it, how more I am against the economic system.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

I have not even submitted a revision yet. As the second proposition did not pass I'm going to submit it all again but with a experimental time limit for its use. This way (as usual) there is nothing to fear about it being perminent. The basic concept is that it if it passes, the system would be in place for something like 2 weeks where a number of scenerios can be attempted. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. If it does I will ONCE AGAIN submit the economic bill for voting. If it does not pass again I will drop the issue. However, ALOT of work has gone into this for it to fail just because people don't like change.

[Erik Mortis]

Odd quirk here. You cannot veto this Bill. It's a matter of Landsraad Procedure, something you cannot interfere directly with.

though this does bring up a issue I never noticed. Which has more authority, the Veto of the Kaiser in the Landsraad, or the Landsraad promise to be able to establish procedure with outside interference. Both are in the Charter. Both are expressly stated. Since it would make no sense to say the Landsraad can have free reign over its own procedures, then give the Kaiser veto over that, I would say that the Veto does not cover Procedures, and thus the Kaiser cannot interfere.

(I'm betting people are wishing I wasn't Arbiter now..hehe)

[Kaiser Hasan I]

There is always the option of repealing the charter.

[Erik Mortis]

Not without the Praetor's Permission. (technically you can't, but I got the Praetor to approve it in the past, thus setting the precedent that SUSPENDING it acts like a amendment.)

I would further, not recommend it politically. (this discussion should be taken somewhere else)

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Any bill, act, measure, dictate, statement or order passed, issued by, or put before the Landsraad may be vetoed by the Kaiser for any reason, at any time.

Neither the Arbiter, nor Imperial Judex may violate this Charter, Imperial Decree or the Lawbook.

All supreme Executive, Legislative, and Judicial powers of Shireroth shall be vested in the Kaiser.

The Kaiser can however create a new Charter when the need arises.

While there is a contradiction in the law regarding the issue you mentioned, I've quoted the charter here on a number of issues which states fairly obviously that I have the power to veto this bill.

It states without reservation that I may veto a bill under any circumstances, reason and at any time. If I were to do so, I could do this via a decree. The Arbiter may not violate the charter, an Imperial Decree or the lawbook. Finally, All supreme Executive, Legislative and Judicial powers are vested in the Kaiser. Which means I may also overrule your judgement. While I may or may not be able to suspend the charter (you've said both so I'm a bit confused), I could potentially create a new charter (I'd rather not). Further, this act was introduced on 18 Jun 08, whereas you resigned your seat as Duke on 01 June 08. And I am unaware of a law which states that the Arbiter can submit legislation to the Landsraad.

[Erik Mortis]

Period. If you veto this you will be violating 8 years of tradition and precedent, core to the balance between Kaiser and Landsraad, on a legal technicality that no other person has EVER bothered to abuse. There will be consequences.

Further, I was instated as the Brookshire Emissary to the Landsraad, meaning I act on behave of my Duke when he's not around.

And, when you quote law, please say were in a document it comes from. I can't find your last quote in the Charter, and suspect it is from the Decree or Lawbook.

[Erik Mortis]

And all your logic ignores one simple fact. The Charter EXPLICITLY states that the Landsraad can set their own procedures without outside interference, stripping from the Kaiser any ability to veto the creation of procedure.

Imperial Charter: Article II, Section A

The Landsraad may set its own rules for voting percentages and procedures, and internal decorum, without outside interference.

(Which might mean that even I can't interfere even if it violates the Charter[Such as I did with Economic Bill Proposal 2], but that would make no sense)

Further.
Imperial Charter: Article IV, Section A

This charter may not be abolished, dissolved or revoked.

As Mors V(?) I suspended the Charter, meaning it still existed but wasn't in effect, but I treated that action like an amendment, and followed that procedure. It was extremely necessary at the time, and is not something I would personally condone outside that situation.

[Erik Mortis]

Imperial Decreebook: Chapter I, Section A, Subsection 1

a. Imperial Decrees may not and cannot violate the Charter.
b. The Kaiser is not above the Charter.
c. The Kaiser can however create a new Charter when the need arises.

The Kaiser may make a new charter yes, but it will have to be instated as an amendment, with the approval of the Praetor. Also, this is another case of an outdated law, and needs to be removed/cleaned up. But as it's in the Decreebook, and not the Charter, it has no power in this argument.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

I thought the Charter could not be amended - the law being (I have no quote, this is just memory talking) that the Kaiser must abolish the old one and start it all over again if he feels it should be changed?

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Since the legal system contradicts itself so many times, and that depending on who's in charge it has different interpretations it might be a good idea to start a new charter. Of course I won't. I put in a lot of work into the procedures of the Landsraad (my version) and it was shot down. Then, before I could even modify it, this bill was introduced effectively killing my ideas. Then the law can apparently be interpreted in a variety of amusing ways to defend or deny depending on who's in charge. To fight against you Erik, is entirely pointless because at the end of the day you could always god mod the issue to your desired result. At this point, after fighting for something that had some support (possibly the majority) I'm sick of fighting. To be perfectly honest I'm tired of fighting over every issue.

[Ari Rahikkala]

This one's only a matter of waiting until tomorrow so that Jonas can pass and close it (and demanding that he actually does that ), then's as good a time as ever to submit new procedures. There's no limit on how often you can modify the law that I know of. (except that the economic system *would* put one in )

[Jonas]

Approved

[Erik Mortis]

The Charter doesn't actually technically contradict itself. It makes some broad statements, then makes some specific exception later. Looked at as a whole, with an eye for what makes sense and assuming there are no contradiction, it makes perfect sense.

I didn't know for sure you would try you put another Procedure Bill forth when I wrote this. And you could still. I just felt a need to modify the system that was in place. Now I have.

And welcome to Legislature, it gets annoying. Look at my Kehl idea, it got shot down, doesn't mean I won't keep trying in the coming years.

And don't accuse me of god modding. I rarely bring the gods into things, and when I do it's with the support of others, in defense of Shireroth as a whole, not for personal reasons. I have rebellions most of the time.

And as for Fighting for every issue. Welcome to be Kaiser, and especially welcome to being a Kaiser who tries to change the system during good times.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

I was just a little bitter that the work YOU and I put into the economy got shot down. It makes it difficult to find motivation for future projects. I don't see how I can introduce a modified bill with the procedures of the landsraad bill being in place. but if you believe it could still work, I'll put in the effort. If there isn't an appetite for this economic system anymore than I'm going to save myself the trouble.

Yes, this is the nature of the job, but trying to gage what the general spirit of the nation is at any given time is difficult. Oh and regarding the Ducal appointment I was not aware that a new Duke of Brookshire had been appointed. As stated elsewhere if Yvain has been made Duke I'll retract the Decree.

[Erik Mortis]

I'll assume good faith and stop rebelling.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Has Yvain accepted the position as Duke? Or is there an appointment somewhere? If not, would it be acceptable to appoint Harald Duke until such a time as Yvain returns?

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Right ok, I caught up, Yvain is Duke, I apologize I was not aware.

[Erik Mortis]

These things happen.

Well, with this now passed. You could just tack on the economic part. Or, if you like I could take it over. I could implement the basic currency bound voting system with only one(1) line added to these Procedures. It would be a simple form of the system, without the complexities that hampered previous attempts.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Alright, sounds good. I'd prefer if you handled it. Mostly because I'm drunk and lazy. My initial intent was to write it as a temporary experimental measure of say 1 month, but if you want to introduce it in a modified form I'm fine with that as well.

[Erik Mortis]

I think tonight I can put forth a new Procedure modification. I'll toss the other revisions asked for in at the same time. though maybe not. I'll figure it out.

[Erik Mortis]

It take it this has passed by now?

[Jonas]

This was approved a long time ago. But I hadn't the right to place it in the archives and I forgot it...

[Erik Mortis]

Has the wiki been updated?

[Jonas]

Yes, it has