Shireroth

We are a country of rebellions. Shireroth has rebelled against a colonial master no fewer than three times: once from Audentior, once from Jasonia, and once from Tymaria. Our unofficial national anthem calls us "the land of the rebel". Through our history, we've had the Color Rebellion, the Mog Rebellion, the Mahamantot Rebellion, the Jacobite Rebellion, and about seven thousand others without official names. Our forum search function lists thirty-seven pages of results for the string "rebellion". Erik of Brookshire and Nick of Yardistan probably lead the rebellion tables with at least a dozen each, but there are quite a few of us who aren't that far behind.

Yet the Lawbook clearly says "Rebelling to overthrow the legitimate Kaiser of Shireroth without his/her consent is prohibited." I personally always read this as having the words "*wink* *wink*" at the end, and probably most of the rest of us did too. But now that we're on a Crusade Against Common Sense or whatever it is that's going on in the Judex these days, some day people are going to forget the *wink* *wink* and actually read that as literally prohibiting rebellion. And that would be a disaster.

I propose editing that section of the Lawbook to read:

E. Rebellion
1. Rebellion to overthrow a legitimate Kaiser, Duke, or Baron is prohibited.
a. The maximum penalty for this offense shall be honorary Yardistani citizenship and consideration for induction into the Lodge of Mischevious Intent
2. Any rebellion that becomes a nuisance or a disruption to ordinary public life can be charged with the separate crime of Disrupting the Forum.
a. The penalty for Disrupting the Forum can be a warning, a fine, or a ban, depending on the judgment of the Judex.
The penalty for repeat offense in this category can be anything up to exile from the State.
b. If a rebellion continues for more than one month, the Judex may at his judgment deem it Disruptive to the Forum.

This essentially makes rebellion nominally illegal but removes the possibility of serious penalty. It assures that disruptive rebellions (like constantly posting "DOWN WITH THE KAISER" on every thread or continuing to rebel long after the time when everyone else is bored with it can still be punished. It should also be noted that if a rebellion fails and the people on top dislike it, they can of course still strip the rebels of their titles if they want to. They're just not *required* to take any action.

Indeed, this witch hunt of the Judex needs to stop. DESTROY JUDEX! DESTROY! DESTROY!

Sounds good to me, actually.

I like it.

While the Bill sounds quite sensible to me, I'd like it if we stopped blaming the Judex for everything ... (that comments not directed at you Scott)

I agree with Andreas. The Judex is there for a reason. Under Hasan, when he tried to exert powers he didn't have, over the Landsraad, it was the Judex that helped protect you. When the Steward started doing crazy illegal shit, it was the Judex there to help protect you.

Yeah, this seems to work

I don't disagree with the existence of the Judex. I do disagree with its current policies of scrupulous literal enforcement of all laws, insistence upon formality, and deliberate creation of a separate lawyer class.

I'd like to see the creation of more classes....

By "creation of a separate lawyer class" I meant a social class, not a university class.

I have two things to say. First that I like this bill. Second that you can't make a lot of laws and then blame me when I attempt to enforce them.

I know Scott. I meant social classes.

The only way you can have an economy is if there are things people NEED to pay for, thus NEED to earn money. A lawyer class as you call it creates a Need. Lawyers need to make some money and learn the law to apply and pass the test. People will need money to get a lawyer, if they don't represent themselves.

This is a start, not the end. I'd like to find more ways to create needs. (but not any so burdensome that they will turn away people)

It might just be me, but I still don't see it as a class.

I see it as a lot like Hesam's idea - why not create qualifications, charge a fee to get them? Creates classes to take, jobs in making them, and a reason to take them. 50 erb is nothing. New citizens get 200. But it's got money moving and at least shows a couple people on the forum can be bothered to spend 10 minutes looking up laws. We shouldn't ever create needs (otherwise it wouldn't be fun), but give some motivation to want, certainly.

Yes. Better put.

I don't know how I feel about this...

Andreas, sometimes I wonder if your love for the economy blinds you a bit.

I'm of the opinion that the courts are one of the problems in a micronation because they try to put a stop to the fun people are trying to have. Absolutely no offense intended here Mike; you're doing an excellent job and I disagree that your "lawyerism" is a bad thing for Shireroth. Those two statements are not nearly as contradictory as they first appear. Like all real problems in the world, the court thing is not one that has a simple answer like "get rid of the courts!"; it's a problem in the sense that it causes problems but also has a vital role in the running of the nation. I don't have any bright ideas on how to make the courts less intrustive and yet keep their function; I suspect that if I did I'd be considerbly more rich and powerful than I am right now.

Perhaps by actually having a real lawbook. With that I mean only having laws in there that are meant to be followed. As it is now it seems like half of it is just for show.

Mike Fors wrote:Perhaps by actually having a real lawbook. With that I mean only having laws in there that are meant to be followed. As it is now it seems like half of it is just for show.

I like how it is now, Mike. It incenses all lawyers, it's not just you. In your case, no matter what the issue, you seem vehement that the law must be followed, which is fair enough. In my case, I am willing to let bygones be bygones and let the law not be followed except where I am involved or interested. Either way, the resulting arguments = more activity and more participation etc.

Yes, but as Arbiter I feel involved all the time when there are legal questions in the air. Or love... *love is in the air* nanana....

Harvey Steffke wrote:Andreas, sometimes I wonder if your love for the economy blinds you a bit.

I'm of the opinion that the courts are one of the problems in a micronation because they try to put a stop to the fun people are trying to have. Absolutely no offense intended here Mike; you're doing an excellent job and I disagree that your "lawyerism" is a bad thing for Shireroth. Those two statements are not nearly as contradictory as they first appear. Like all real problems in the world, the court thing is not one that has a simple answer like "get rid of the courts!"; it's a problem in the sense that it causes problems but also has a vital role in the running of the nation. I don't have any bright ideas on how to make the courts less intrustive and yet keep their function; I suspect that if I did I'd be considerbly more rich and powerful than I am right now.

Meh. I've seen nations with court regulations. A ten minute exam that can be taken at any time in what is absolutely basic Shirithian law is hardly onerous.

I'll point out I've yet to be unlazy enough to take the test.... but that's on my head.

Either way, the resulting arguments = more activity and more participation etc.

Will, that's typical Anthelian philosophy.
Please don't let us sink to those depths!

... I mean, with all respect to John, Anthelia was a tad... dry...

Anyway, sure. Decriminalization of Rebellion. Sounds grand.
But shouldn't there be some let-out clause for Article 2b? I mean, as Will just said, such rebellions often give us much needed activity... a legal Nazi could easily take 2b as read and impeach any rebellion and its perpetrators, even if it is beneficial.
And what of RecWars? Continuity and that? You can't just stop a rebellion, there needs to be some kind of plausible explanation as to why it ends- a peace conference or something.

I'm of the opinion that the courts are one of the problems in a micronation because they try to put a stop to the fun people are trying to have.

Amen, amen, amen!

I acknowledge that Mike is contributing (and hopefully having great fun) by nitpicking the law. It's is way of rebelling while not rebelling.

The great safety-valve here is the Kaiser. Under the current Kaisership, I think all good rebels will fare well in the end (not victorious, necessarily, but not banished).

Mike does a lot of Arbiter-ness with his tongue firmly in cheek.

However, the future must be protected. We could, gods forfend, get a more serious version of Hasan, or an (even more) evil version of Loki in either office.

The thought has always been, "Well, if that happens, Erik will pull the plug on whoever and do a re-set." (Feels the bruises of a minor re-set.) This can be a re-assuring thought, but what if he's not around to do that? Does Shireroth self-destruct? Or can measures be taken to protect the nation?

That's what the Charter is for Jake.... That's why I got so agree when you put concrete laws in there, that would prevent a potential reset by the system without me.

But even you (Mors V) had to suspend the Charter to do a reset...

I chose to. I didn't HAVE to.

The difference between "rebellion" and "disruptive rebellion" needs to be more precise and included in the text of the bill (you know what lawyers can be like...). Also, not entirely convinced its a good idea to allow judges to exercise discretionary judgement in this matter as that would set a precedent. Why not have the Kaiser issue an 'Imperial Smackdown' (that does have a basis in law right?) if a rebellion lasts longer than a month or becomes insufferable.

but what if the rebellion is against the Kaiser? then the Kaiser would just issue an imperial smackdown as soon as the rebellion began.

Yes, or what a while for activity reasons.