Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:21 am
Shireroth
The Imperial Republic of Shireroth
https://shireroth.org/forum/
Apparently we are losing Musica...
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Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:32 am
The Baron of the UI has no power to cancel the deal. Only the Dukes of Yardistan and Brookshire may do so.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:56 am
I got the impression the deal wasn't being cancelled, it just wasn't being extended.
Of course, once Prodigy signs up to SCIRA, there are ... other options.
Of course, once Prodigy signs up to SCIRA, there are ... other options.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:00 am
It doesn't have to be extended. The deal says that it continues indefinitely, but at any time after 150 ASC years, either of the parties can cancel it. The parties are the Dukes of Yardistan and Brookshire.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:38 am
The parties would be all signatory parties, no? That means the Duke of Brookshire, the Duke of Yardistan, the Baron of the UI, and the Count of Musica all have the ability to cancel the agreement.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:58 am
Those that have the ability to cancel the deal are those that are mentioned in the treaty as having power to cancel the deal. 
Not rocket science.
Not rocket science.Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:01 am
...This might come into play, actually...Should any dispute or unexpected complication arise, the Duchy of Brookshire and Duchy of Yardistan agree to put the matter before the Imperial Judex, and to be bound by its decisions.
I dunno, this whole document confuses me...
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:05 am
It might. Depends on what Prodigy says. If he says that the deal is off, then I can't really prevent it.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:51 pm
Oh, come on. Let's all solve this like the mature, responsible adults that we are.
...yes, of course I meant civil war. What else?
...yes, of course I meant civil war. What else?
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:04 pm
Mike.. you can't take it to the Judex... You're the Arbiter and have no Assistant Arbiter. Meaning it goes to the Landsraad or Kaiser to rule on it.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:48 pm
Those in bold are the signing parties. One may cancel the treaty at any time, according to the treaty. Therefore, come the 22nd, Musica is Yardistani Territory.In mutual friendship and in concern for the well-being of Shireroth and the flourishing of its many lands, the Duchies of Brookshire and Yardistan declare the following, taking effect either upon 22 Biternionsmoon or upon approval by the Landsraad, whichever is later:
The Duchy of Brookshire agrees to lease the city of Nee, the surrounding countryside, and three nearby small islands to the Duchy of Yardistan for 150 ASC years. For the period of the lease, Yardistan will control its internal affairs, and its inhabitants will acquire Yardistani citizenship.
The Duchy of Yardistan agrees to lease the County of Musica to Brookshire for 150 ASC years. For the period of the lease, Brookshire will control its internal affairs, and its inhabitants will acquire Brookshirean citizenship.
At any time after 150 ASC years are over, either party may choose to cancel this treaty. If neither party chooses to do so, this treaty will remain in effect indefinitely. If the treaty is cancelled, the residents of the affected territories will become citizens of the Duchy to which their lands revert unless they formally choose to change their place of residence.
The Dukes of Brookshire and Yardistan swear to treat all citizens in the affected areas fairly and humanely, and with the respect due to any other area of their territory.
Should any dispute or unexpected complication arise, the Duchy of Brookshire and Duchy of Yardistan agree to put the matter before the Imperial Judex, and to be bound by its decisions.
Signed: YVAIN WINTERSONG, DUKE OF BROOKSHIRE
Signed: (Duke of Yardistan)
Signed: (Baron of the Holy Lands)
Signed: (Count of Musica)
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:58 pm
See the thread in Yardistan.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:36 am
The treaty does not say "signing parties" it says "parties", i.e. the duchies.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:42 am
Wrong, it was not between just the dukes, it says signing parties, which means all of those listed that signed the treaty. 
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:33 am
It does not say signing parties. I can read you know.
Btw, if the treaty is cancelled (it really depends on what Prodigy says), I expect to get Nee back.
Btw, if the treaty is cancelled (it really depends on what Prodigy says), I expect to get Nee back.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:58 am
Do we have to get lawyery here? *sigh*
A lease that lasts 150 years lasts 150 years.
The treaty cancellation clauses no doubt refer to the other articles such as
Summation:
Nee has been part of Brookshire and Musica part of Yardistan since 150 ASC after the Treaty was signed, whenever that was.
The Duchy of Yardistan agrees to lease Musica for 150 years.The Duchy of Yardistan agrees to lease the County of Musica to Brookshire for 150 ASC years. For the period of the lease, Brookshire will control its internal affairs, and its inhabitants will acquire Brookshirean citizenship.
At any time after 150 ASC years are over, either party may choose to cancel this treaty. If neither party chooses to do so, this treaty will remain in effect indefinitely. If the treaty is cancelled, the residents of the affected territories will become citizens of the Duchy to which their lands revert unless they formally choose to change their place of residence.
A lease that lasts 150 years lasts 150 years.
The treaty cancellation clauses no doubt refer to the other articles such as
which continues on after the 150 years because there is no mention of a time frame.The Dukes of Brookshire and Yardistan swear to treat all citizens in the affected areas fairly and humanely, and with the respect due to any other area of their territory
Summation:
Nee has been part of Brookshire and Musica part of Yardistan since 150 ASC after the Treaty was signed, whenever that was.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:52 am
I don't understand what you're saying here. The treaty lasts for 150 ASC years. After that time period, if the treaty is not cancelled, it continues until it is cancelled by either party, i.e., the dukes.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:24 pm
Mike Fors wrote:The treaty lasts for 150 ASC years.
Treaty =/= LeaseThe Duchy of Yardistan agrees to lease the County of Musica to Brookshire for 150 ASC years.
The Treaty involved a lease but nonetheless the Treaty =/= that lease
The lease lasted 150 ASC years
The treaty was indefinite
The clauses regarding cancellation pertained to the treaty, not the lease, which naturally expired after 150 ASC years
Do you understand now?
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:11 pm
Hurray for poor wording! 
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:35 pm
You can't separate the lease from the treaty like that. The lease IS the treaty. Anyhow, Prodigy has spoken. Musica stays for the time being.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:44 pm
Have nee back.Mike Fors wrote:It does not say signing parties. I can read you know.
Btw, if the treaty is cancelled (it really depends on what Prodigy says), I expect to get Nee back.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:11 am
Treaty =/= Lease Mike. A lease is a lease and a treaty is a treaty. This is a treaty involving a lease; treaty is indefinite - I think we can all agree on that - but specific provisions are given as to after how long the lease terminates.Mike Fors wrote:You can't separate the lease from the treaty like that. The lease IS the treaty. Anyhow, Prodigy has spoken. Musica stays for the time being.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:09 am
If you separate the lease from the treaty, there is nothing substantial left. Treaty isn't the right word anyway, contract is more appropriate. Whichever way you twist it, there is consensus between me and Prodigy on how to interpret the text. As he said, Musica and Nee stays the way they are for the time being.
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:01 am
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:03 am
Scheisse... the YAC must be having a field day! 
Anyway, maybe this is a good enough reason for another RecWar?
Anyway, maybe this is a good enough reason for another RecWar?
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:12 am
Our generals are likely going to be busy with http://www.micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1841 - can't we find a way to escalate this into a nice big constitutional crisis instead? We've had a lot of those lately and I've found that I like them more than recwars 
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:15 am
Woah... what's the story wi' that?
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:24 pm
I have no previous recwar experiance, i'd like to get some under my belt with this. 
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:34 pm
If Brookshire wants Musica so much, maybe they can buy Milord Baron's acquiescence? Money? More land to BUI? You have some spare islands.........
Maybe Lord Mike could withdraw the challenge to Preator Jonas? The mind boggles.....
Maybe Lord Mike could withdraw the challenge to Preator Jonas? The mind boggles.....
Re: Apparently we are losing Musica...
Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:24 pm
Bribe us.