Shireroth

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:53 pm**

As the final day of the Musica Treaty comes to a close, I hearby withdraw the BUI support from the treaty, thus making Musica part of Yardistan. Sorry Mike, it was a stupid decision in the first place. I've said it on EBR, that we would pull the hell out of there as soon as possible. I suggest you change your residence if you wish to remain Duke of Brookshire.

Door mijn hand,

Jess, Baron of the United Isles of Naudia'Diva, Florencia, Amity, Miroth, So Sara, and Yardistan, oh and now Musica.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:04 pm**

If I'm not mistaken, there is still a week until 150ASC after 22nd Biternionsmoon...

December 22nd is the date you're looking for...

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:05 pm**

treaty came into effect the 17th right?

Anyway, yeah consider it cancelled after whenever.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:09 pm**

Actually, the wording said it goes into affect on Biternionsmoon 22nd or when the Landsraad approves it, whichever is later. It was ly passed by the Landsraad on July 29th, which is Biternionsmoon 25th. 150 years ASC (or 150 days) later, is December 25th.

I don't have any problems with this, since it was a completely legal maneuver, but I'm just making sure it is carried out in accordance with the treaty.

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:31 pm**

22nd seems right.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:21 am**

How disappointing.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:31 am**

And uneffectful. The deal was made between the Duke of Yardistan and the Duke of Brookshire. Nowhere was the Baron of the UI mentioned. The contracting parties were the Dukes and only the Dukes can cancel the deal.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:42 am**

Then let the Duke cancel the Deal... Prodigy, wanna weigh in?

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:33 am**

Mike Fors wrote:And uneffectful. The deal was made between the Duke of Yardistan and the Duke of Brookshire. Nowhere was the Baron of the UI mentioned. The contracting parties were the Dukes and only the Dukes can cancel the deal.

Well, the treaty did require the signature of the Baron of the UI, if I remember correctly...

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:54 am**

Be that as it may, the text of the deal makes it clearly something between the duchies, and not requiring the approval of the baron. I'll await Prodigy's input.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:05 pm**

Where is the Contract? (Treaties between Duchies are illegal I think)

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:15 pm**

I think I'll let it stand for now. I guess we want Musica back sometime, but it need not be immediate.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:18 pm**

We've grown fond of having back under our control and a part of our culture.

It used to be ours you know. Letifer II (or was it I) took control of it during the Mog rebellion. Or it might have been some other rebellion.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:01 pm**

I recommend the Duke of Yardistan accede to the Baron's wishes on this point.

Back when Duke Yvain was trying to get Brookshire up and running again, he asked Baron Jess for Musica and its two active citizens. Baron Jess, for no reason other than the goodness of his heart, assented to that, even though it meant he lost two citizens and a city. A whole bunch of people were against it, but because of Baron Jess' steadfast support, it eventually went through and Brookshire was able to complete its revitalization plan.

I don't know why Jess changed his mind. However, because of the sacrifice he put in during the original treaty, he's earned the right to have his opinion on this matter respected. Why should a Baron agree to a lease next time if he has to worry that the territories he's leasing are never going to get returned to him?

Of course, the best solution would be for Baron Jess to acknowledge that Mike (and Bill if he's even around) prefer it in Brookshire and support the treaty's continuation. He could even ask for some sort of compensation, which Brookshire (or myself) would probably be happy to give him. But if he won't do that, he deserves to get the land back in honor of the sacrifice he made giving it up in the first place.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:04 pm**

What did Bill have to do with this?

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:33 pm**

Bill Bekkenhuis of Musica.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:53 pm**

Scott of Hyperborea wrote:I recommend the Duke of Yardistan accede to the Baron's wishes on this point.

Back when Duke Yvain was trying to get Brookshire up and running again, he asked Baron Jess for Musica and its two active citizens. Baron Jess, for no reason other than the goodness of his heart, assented to that, even though it meant he lost two citizens and a city. A whole bunch of people were against it, but because of Baron Jess' steadfast support, it eventually went through and Brookshire was able to complete its revitalization plan.

I don't know why Jess changed his mind. However, because of the sacrifice he put in during the original treaty, he's earned the right to have his opinion on this matter respected. Why should a Baron agree to a lease next time if he has to worry that the territories he's leasing are never going to get returned to him?*

Of course, the best solution would be for Baron Jess to acknowledge that Mike (and Bill if he's even around) prefer it in Brookshire and support the treaty's continuation. He could even ask for some sort of compensation, which Brookshire (or myself) would probably be happy to give him. But if he won't do that, he deserves to get the land back in honor of the sacrifice he made giving it up in the first place.

*Answer: I changed my mind because it was stupid in the first place.

Sorry Mike, but I want Musica back, and I have the power to do that.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:20 pm**

It was a wonderful thing you did in the first place. You helped Brookshire immensely. They might still be the "no one lives there nothing happens" Duchy if not for you and that treaty you signed.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:51 pm**

Maybe could I get the title, "Saviour of Brookshire"?

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:01 pm**

I have to agree with Mike though on the legal interpretation of the Treaty though...

The phrase: "either party", plus the numerous mentions of the Duchies, and non-other indicates this was between the Duchies, thus they are the parties involved. The Duke of Yardistan would have to cancel the Treaty on behalf of his Baron for it to be terminated.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:30 pm**

No, it was my understanding that I could cancel it. If we don't get Musica back, something bad will happen.

Posted: **Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:53 pm**

As the person who wrote the treaty:

It was originally intended to be between the Duke of Brookshire and the Duke of Yardistan. That's why it says things like "either party". The Duke of Yardistan (Benkern) decreed that he would not assent to it unless the appropriate lesser nobles (Baron of UI and Count of Musica) also assented to it. So I got their permission and added space at the end for their signatures without changing the text of the treaty. So it's a treaty between four parties that reads like a treaty between two parties. There was no intention to say whether or not the Baron and Count had permission to cancel the treaty because they just weren't taken into account in the treaty's first draft. I dunno where that leaves us legally.

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:42 am**

If I was still in the Judex I'd read it as a document between Dukes, and leave it to them to ask their lessers if they want to cancel.

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:40 am**

I agree with Erik. If Prodigy says that the deal is cancelled, I'll consent to that. If he doesn't, I'll take it to the Kaiser to decide.

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:41 am**

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:31 am**

You can't expect me to just hand over Musica.

The treaty says that if there is any conflict, the parties agree to bring it before the Judex. I can't hear it, and the next arbiter is the Kaiser.

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:59 am**

Here:

b3n|<3r|\| wrote:Do we have to get lawyery here? *sigh*

The Duchy of Yardistan agrees to lease the County of Musica to Brookshire for 150 ASC years. For the period of the lease, Brookshire will control its internal affairs, and its inhabitants will acquire Brookshirean citizenship.

At any time after 150 ASC years are over, either party may choose to cancel this treaty. If neither party chooses to do so, this treaty will remain in effect indefinitely. If the treaty is cancelled, the residents of the affected territories will become citizens of the Duchy to which their lands revert unless they formally choose to change their place of residence.
The Duchy of Yardistan agrees to lease Musica for 150 years.
A lease that lasts 150 years lasts 150 years.
The treaty cancellation clauses no doubt refer to the other articles such as

The Dukes of Brookshire and Yardistan swear to treat all citizens in the affected areas fairly and humanely, and with the respect due to any other area of their territory
which continues on after the 150 years because there is no mention of a time frame.

Summation:
Nee has been part of Brookshire and Musica part of Yardistan since 150 ASC after the Treaty was signed, whenever that was.

I believes the issue has been resolved.

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:56 am**

The treaty hasn't been cancelled by either me or Prodigy. Therefore, the issue is not resolved. If we don't cancel the treaty after 150 ASC years, it continues indefinitely with Musica in Brookshire and Nee in Yardistan.

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:31 pm**

All this would be solved if the Duke of Yardistan would say Yea or Nay to continuation of the Contract.

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:57 pm**

Assuming he could be assed to comment...

Shireroth

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