Page 1 of 2

War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:43 am
by Andreas the Wise
I suspect nothing will happen until I write a charter, so here it is.
Shirithian Internal Recwar System (SIRS)
Scope
Any Shirithian Citizen may have an army. Upon cessation of citizenship, their army will be disbanded.
At any time, a Shirithian Citizen may order their army to carry out an action - moving, stealing something, attacking another army etc. Where this action brings them into conflict with another army, they begin a battle.

Fighting
Fighting shall be under the Anunia Convention and NCM [Newfangled Charter of Magic], with the following provisos.
The Judge shall be the MoMA or appointed representative.
Where combatants cannot agree on an outcome, the Judge can impose casualties and declare the battle over.

Purchasing an Army
Units may be purchased from Registered Orbat Sellers.
Units cost the amount of Erb of their strength in Anunia Points.
Units purchased remain until they have been killed.
Only units purchased in this manner, and buildings already described [Existing National Defence] may be used in battles.
Where desired units are not available at any Orbat seller, they may be purchased from MiniTrade at their strength in Anunia Points.

Registering as an Orbat Seller
Prospective Orbat Sellers must gain MiniTrade and MoMA approval before being registered.
Orbat Sellers can only be registered to produce a specific type of troop (eg Modern, Medieval, Magic etc).
Orbat sellers are required to purchase the raw materials to construct their units from from MiniTrade. Costs are as follows:
Infantry (modern) - 0.9
Tank - 25
Non-Tank Vehicle - 15
Helicopter - 50
Plane - 450
Sub - 900
Ship (any) - 1000
[insert cost for categories "Mage" and "Creature" when NCM finished]
Unmounted Infantry (non-modern) - 0.3
Cavalry - 5
Seige Weapon - 10
Non-Modern Vehicle - 10
These must be paid for each unit sold.
Ok, that wasn't in great detail (for example, I just ripped off Anunia instead of writing out a simpler but in full set of rules like CITRA). But it covers all the basics. You can have an army. You can use it to do whatever (research ruins, rebel against your leader, civil war over Kaisership etc). You buy your army at its point cost for war (as in CITRA). The major difference from CITRA is that you DON'T buy your units from the government - you buy them from Orbat Sellers. Orbat Sellers register as a business with me, and get approval to show they can actually make valid units from Prodigy (you can invent a test and charge a fee for doing so if you want). The government also gets a cut of every unit sold (otherwise the profits would be far too much). I put the cut at just under the basic cost of that broad category of thing. It encourages the Orbat Sellers to mark up and invent more interesting and strong units, such that they get more money by selling it (eg if you sell infantry at 1, you only make 0.1 of an erb per infantry ... but if you sell Elite Marines at 3, you get 2.1). I tried to make broad categories of non-modern stuff to cover Medieval, 18th Century etc ....
Sci-Fi could possibly be done ... but Prodigy and I'd have to see some serious proposals for costs and strengths before working out our cut and whether it's viable.

Oh, and Prodigy, feel free to rewrite any of this to help it make more sense. That's your job, as MoMA ... to get the battle stuff working. I've just put down the basics to get the selling of armies working :document

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:48 am
by Andreas the Wise
Oh ... the other alternative is we just join CITRA (we'd [we being Bayen and me] have to release another 100 000 to fit that many extra citizens, but Bayen said it was fine to invite other nations, so ...). We'd just register one Shireroth account which gets all the income from Land, and then we'd just let you guys buy units with Erb. What'd actually be happening is you pay us erb, we buy units with CP and give you the units ... but for you it'd just be like buying with Erb (and saves you all registering with another bank). We'd just maintain an orbat list on here ....

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:05 am
by Malliki
I think a section should be put in that states that no one may attack a unwilling party. Just for clarity's sake.

Lamifo Corp. would like to register as an Orbat Seller.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:54 pm
by Andreas the Wise
Err ... no. You're thinking normal Recwar, I'm thinking CITRA ... (sorry, I realise I'm probably writing this in a way that makes more sense to people used to CITRA since that what I'm basing it off).

The point is that your standing army can invade any other Shirithian at any time, willing or not. That's why its ... well, the word Constant wasn't put in the title but it is ...

And what kind of orbats? Thinking a little further, I envisage modern military selling the most, so I'd say, for a start, categories being:
Land (modern)
Navy (modern)
Air (modern)
Magic (NCM)
Medieval
18th Century (this is like cannons, sailing ships, muskets etc. Medieval = No Gunpowder)

We can add more if people create more, but I don't forsee many more than 6 people wanting to be involved ....
(dibs on magic, btw)

So which category would Lamifo be interested in?

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:21 pm
by Prodigy Almighty
Uh, looks alright from what I can see. Might want to make it more clear for non-CITRA people, but I don't know what to elaborate on because I am a CITRA person... (non-CITRA people? Offer suggestions for clarification?)

Also, why are modern infantry .9? That's just silly. Make it 1... I figure it has to do with the same reason you have non-modern infantry as .3, but you can just make that 1/3 and keep the same ratio (no silly decimals, either).

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:25 pm
by Andreas the Wise
I made it .9 because some people are only going to want basic infantry at cost 1, and this way the people still make a (minor) profit. But you're welcome to change it ... it's half'n'half a MoMA system.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:07 pm
by Malliki
Lamifo Corp. would like to register in Modern, preferably land, air and navy if possible. They weren't included as separate categories in the first post. :jesus

Will you be able to invade a subdivision without a standing army? What if the lord of that subdivision isn't interested in recwars? Does that mean that I can just march in and go 'nananananana'?

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:57 pm
by Andreas the Wise
You may only register from one. Just because it wasn't in the first first draft doesn't mean I can't add it before anything becomes official :p Besides, its much more conducive to business participation splitting the big one up into 3 ;)

Yes, you can march in and go 'nanananana'. Not too much else you can do. Oh, maybe you could loot a few things. You'd probably have the Kaiser come down on you and destroy your army. But if they won't participate, you can't force them too.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:16 pm
by Malliki
Okay, now it makes sense. :) I'll take Modern, land. What is the RL equivalent of 1 infantry unit? Batallion, brigade?

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:33 pm
by Andreas the Wise
.... have you fought in a recwar before? 1 Infantry unit is just that - a single person.

Wait, what am I worrying for :archy ... I just make sure companies are registered and don't rip the government off too much ... it's Prodigy's job to ensure the businesses actually understand the orbat they're making ... :smashy

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:53 pm
by Malliki
Andreas the Wise wrote:.... have you fought in a recwar before?
No, I haven't. Or have I? :shifty

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:54 pm
by Andreas the Wise
I'll let Prodigy deal with this then.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:02 pm
by Malliki
I haven't fought actively, but I've watched. I also know a thing or two about military organisation and such. I think I can handle this, and if I suck I won't get any orders. :document

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:24 am
by Andreas the Wise
That's better than I was fearing, then. But its still up to Prodigy how he handles his end of approvals ... as long as he's happy that anyone he approves will sell appropriate stuff.

Hmm, Hesam said restart the uni, but ... oooh, now that could be interesting. What if classes were run in a secret forum you had to pay to access? (stops freeloaders). And then there was a second, smaller fee, for taking the test for approval. Those who Prodigy knows are already greatly experienced in recwars (for example, I'll turn the examiner into a toad if he doesn't pass me for magic troops instantly, considering I've helped write every magic system :demon ) still have to pay the fee, just don't have to take the test. Other uni courses could use the secret forum idea, as long as they're things people want to know .... hmm ... off to MiniInf, I think ...

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:21 am
by Malliki
Like LEGAL STUFF!!! :yay:

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:05 pm
by Kaiser Loki III
I prefer the kind of recwar wherein the participants raise their forces by rectal extrapolation, but I guess time moves on. :(

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:48 am
by Erik Mortis
Guess I need to get around to ordering an orbat for Monty Crisco....

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:58 am
by Andreas the Wise
Are people happy with this then? It doesn't necessarily need to go through Landsraad but Prodigy does need to work out how he'll approve it and confirm that. It'd also be good for each Duke to give general approval for this to occur within their Duchy (the SIRS equivalent of nations signing up, for you CITRA people.)

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:42 am
by Erik Mortis
As a Baron I like it. I only read the first post/draft. but the idea pleases me.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:48 am
by Andreas the Wise
It's a good idea. I know because I ripped it off Toketi :p

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:08 am
by Malliki
Can you have military forces on all subdivisional levels (Duchy, Barony, County)?

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:58 pm
by Andreas the Wise
Yes. You can arrange them however you like. Your forces answer to you as a person, however ... so you don't get given more money to buy things just because you're a Duke, for example.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:15 pm
by Malliki
I suppose you have to pay with your own money anyway, so we don't "get given" money.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:37 pm
by Andreas the Wise
Third Draft (with much ripping off CITRA) (Acronym Negotiable. I'm also considering SCIRSociety or CISRA)
Shirithian Constant Internal Recwar Association (SCIRA)
Joining
Any Duchy of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth may elect to join SCIRA.
Any member-Duchy may elect to leave SCIRA. They may only do so if there are no forces of other Duchies in their territory, and they are not currently engaged in conflict. Upon leaving SCIRA all of their currently held troops become forfeit. If they re-enter SCIRS, they do not receive these troops back.

Scope
Any Shirithian Citizen residing in a member-Duchy may have an army. Upon cessation of citizenship, or moving to a non-member Duchy, their army will be disbanded.
Hereafter references to Shirithian Citizens assume they are qualified to raise an army (ie reside in a member-Duchy).
SCIRA only recognises the land held by member-Duchies on Micras. Participants may not enter any other land, though they may enter international waters in order to reach other member-Duchies.
Shirithian Citizens are free to give their troops actions at any point in time, regardless of whether a war is officially occurring. Each unit of their army may only make one action per day (unless responding). See Action and Conflict for more details.

Judging
The Judge shall be the MoMA or appointed representative.
The judge's decisions are final and cannot be changed. They may realize later an error, but in order to further the forward progress of the war, they are not able to go back and change things.

Actions
Troops are moved and commanded in three ways, PUBLIC, SECRET, and RESPONSE. Each unit may only make one Public or Secret action per day. If their opponent responds to that they are permitted to respond again, up to three times per day. If they have been attacked, their first response counts as their Public or Secret action for the day.
For public actions, you post the orders that your troops are given in a War Topic or other similar place, as specified by the judge. It is encouraged to also post a narrative version of your orders, to make reading more enjoyable.
Anonymous ("secret malefactor" in popular terminology) public actions are allowed at the discretion of the judge.
For secret actions, the same procedure is followed, except instead of posting it, you privately send it to the judge (method of contact is at the judge's discretion, typically pm). The judge will determine if the orders are possible to be done secretly. (For example, marching a full army by a city in broad daylight isn't typically something that can be done stealthily, but slipping four covert ops outside a camp to keep watch is.) If the judge deems it impossible, he/she will ask you to post it as a public action instead. The actions does not officially take place until the judge sends you a confirmation. (If you don't have time for this, make a public action, which acts instantly.)
Public and Secret actions can be used in conjunction (like a public battle plan to retreat, and a secret order to set up a minefield behind you to catch pursuers.)
A Response action is used to defend, counter, or otherwise react to another member's action. It can be either a Public or Secret action as well. If the judge thinks the connection is too indirect, or the response is irrelevant, the Response action will have to become its own Public or Secret action instead.
Response actions can be chained - a response to a response to a response is not uncommon in large battles.

CONFLICT
If an action involving battle or conflict is made, the attacking troops must wait for a Response Action from their enemy before making another move.
If the enemy takes more than twenty-four hours in responding, the commander of the attacking troops may decide the outcome of the conflict (including casualties and such) and proceed on with other moves. This decision of the outcome, if deemed unfair by the judge, can be vetoed and changed (also by the judge).
The outcome of a conflict should be decided (or at least an attempt made) by the involved parties. The base deciding point, if ALL else is equal, is point value. If a 5,000 point force encounters a 3,000 point force, the former should, under normal circumstances, defeat the latter. However, take into account factors such as strategy (a well planned attack by the 3,000 point force met by a thoughtless defense by the 5,000 point force could very well prevail), terrain (high-ground better than low-ground), familiarity (homeland better than foreign land), morale (high spirits [due to defending land from invading forces] better than low morale [due to lack of supplies, overwork, etc.]), among other things.
When posting an attack, the attacker can post expected casualties for both sides. These are in no way set in stone, but merely an idea of what they hope to accomplish. The defending side may then post their counter, and their expected casualties for both sides (which are also subject to change).
If the combatants cannot decide on a consensus for the outcome and casualties within 24 hours of the last Response action (or, if there were no responses, the original action), the judge may make a final, irrevocable, unchangeable decision, which all must abide by.
"God-modding", defined as determining your opponents reaction/result, or the failure to play within acceptable reality as set by the association, is unacceptable. Where persistent and/or deliberate, it results in an appropriate action being taken by the Judge. In essence, your attack post should only include what you plan to do (and if you wish, expected casualties). It may not include how the opponent responds, or assume the attack is successful. This is up to the opponent to respond to. Even if there is no way you can see for the opponent to stop your attack, you must still not god-mod the results. The only exception to this is invoking the 24 hour rule above.

Timeline
Actions occur at the time when they are posted, except for response actions in conflicts, which can occur at any time in between when they are posted and when the action they are responding to was made. This being said, the time of day the action is occurring is up to the person initially making the action.

Purchasing an Army
Units may be purchased from Registered Orbat Sellers.
Units cost the amount of Erb of their strength in Anunia Points. See sections IV.D-F of the Anunia Convention for the principles of determining a units point cost.
Magical units will be determined under NCM or equivalent.
At all times, and especially for units not expressly covered under Anunia or NCM, a units point cost is their strength relative to other units, with 1 point being a basic modern infantry unit.
Biological Weapons, Nuclear Weapons and other weapons of Mass Destruction may not be purchased under any circumstances.
Units purchased remain until they have been killed.
Only units purchased in this manner, and buildings already described [Existing National Defence, see III.A-B] may be used in battles.
Where desired units are not available at any Orbat seller, they may be purchased from MiniTrade at their strength in Anunia Points.
All units are subject to removal by the judge if they are deemed unrealistic as reality is defined by the Association. Anybody in posession of unrealistic units will be given a full refund.

Registering as an Orbat Seller
Prospective Orbat Sellers must gain MiniTrade and MoMA approval before being registered.
Orbat Sellers can only be registered to produce a specific type of troop.
Orbat sellers are required to purchase the raw materials to construct their units from from MiniTrade. Costs are as follows:
Infantry (modern) - 0.9
Tank - 25
Non-Tank Vehicle - 15
Helicopter - 50
Plane - 450
Sub - 900
Ship (any) - 1000
Mage - Their rank cubed
Creature - Their base cost
Unmounted Infantry (non-modern) - 0.3
Cavalry - 5
Seige Weapon - 10
Non-Modern Vehicle - 10
These must be paid for each unit sold.
At present (though this list is subject to change at the discretion of MiniTrade and MoMA) the following categories of troops may be sold, with the following restrictions.
Medieval - In use 14th Century or earlier, no gun powder.
1800's - In use 19th Century or earlier.
Modern - Land - In current or previous use. Land units only.
Modern - Sea - In current or previous use. Sea units only (includes Marines).
Modern - Air - In current or previous use. Air units only (includes Paratroopers),
Advanced - Currently possible technology or possible up to 20 years in the future (at Judge's discretion). Any type.

Amendment
This charter may be amended by the Judge, MoMA or MiniTrade, after consultation with the public, and one weeks notice.
This charter may be amended by Act of Landsraad.
What is unsaid:
You can start a fight for any reason, against anyone - you might raise your army to protest your Duke's Landsraad vote, or to invade another Duchy, or just because you're bored. You can also end on any terms - transfer money or power or land, just agree to stop, Kaisership etc.
You are most welcome to make agreements about levels of technology (eg "Let's only fight with 1800's tech or earlier"). Same with saying "Hey guys, I'm on LOA for a week, don't invade me." Remember, virtually all Shirithians are lovely, honourable people, so just because it's possible to do mean and underhanded things, doesn't mean people will (and if they will anyway a. They'd find loopholes to any rules we put in to stop them and b. The Kaiser and rest of nation can just slam their army).
If there are people who don't want to participate in this, but their Duchy is, the answer is easy. Hire another army to defend you. Creates even more private enterprise ... Hurrah!
"Advanced" technology is the sort of stuff CAA comes out with. I figured "why not just make it its own category and restrict Modern stuff to 'in current use' to avoid all the sorts of disputes we have in Toketi." Prodigy, that's totally your domain for working out what's appropriate.
MoMA approval assumes Prodigy has checked you're capable of running the shop competently - whether by a test, or because he's fought in several wars with you.
I don't think this charter needs to be made official by Landsraad or Kaiser - effectively it is (as Dukes have to approve) and its basically a MiniTrade/MoMA "industry" anyway. But I put in that Landsraad can edit it in case you get a dodgy MiniTrade or MoMA later. I didn't put Kaiser/Steward because this is the sort of thing better done by a consensus of people rather than one powerful individual who may not have the nation's economy/military needs at heart (absolutely no reference to current or future proposed Kaisers, but I figured I'd put in the safeguard against possible Kaisers well into the future who mightn't have the slightest clue about recwarring).
Yes, vast portions of this were ripped of CITRA. (some off vs 1)
"Land on Micras" is written like that to include Straylight (if I'd said MCS Land it wouldn't, since your sancts aren't on there. Now you can put them in, if you want), but exclude joining the GSO or anything strange.
There's no army caps in this. Landsraad is welcome to put one in if they deem it necessary.
We could put in everyone gets an amount of starting troops (I wouldn't put in 10 000 like CITRA 2.0 because, by the nature of the amount of erb we earn, this is a far smaller affair, but 2000, say, could be appropriate) - I just didn't because that gets confusing if people leave and then return. Let's NOT put in anything about Dukes getting more starting troops than Counts or anything silly like that.
My, that's a lot of unsaid things ...
Oh, and this could be official as soon as Prodigy's happy with it, to get some money moving.

EDIT: Discussed this with Prodigy. Removed Sci-fi is as too hard to fit in. Your niftyness, you might be able to get away with a single ship for Admiral Quirk on the condition you didn't use it to blast the planet into oblivion :fish . Otherwise, this is good to go as far as MiniTrade and MoMA are concerned. I wait now for Dukes to agree to it, and any other public comments.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:13 am
by Jonas
As Dutch of Kildare, I sign this proposal. Let it be known that from now on Kildare will use it! :document

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:08 am
by Malliki
The Duchy of Brookshire agrees with the principles outlined herein as well. We will participate when interest and time allows.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:34 pm
by Andreas the Wise
Excellent, there's still something for me to use money on.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:47 pm
by Andreas the Wise
Prodigy, I've edited in a possible way to count magic units (I'll ask Bayen for his advice in this regard). For Mages, it's their magic power I have to pay for (so I only make money on the base cost and any racial powers)
For creatures, it's their base cost I have to pay (so I make money on any magical powers). Seems the simplest fair method.

And Prodigy, could you approve my right to sell magical units :demon

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:51 pm
by Prodigy Almighty
God damn, there's all kinda of shit I'morgetting...

Your right to magical unit sale is approved. However, if you try to monopolize, I will beat your face. :p

Also, as I meant to post... oh, last month or so, I approve of this CITRA-esque Recwar charter.

Re: War Proposal

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:53 pm
by Andreas the Wise
Excellent. I'll take it Yardistan does too - three duchies in.

I'd better get my shop going ...