Shireroth

Ever since benkern corrected duchal local prerogative to include creating and destroying baronies at will, I've been thinking on and off about what leadership and local prerogative really mean. No, I don't mean the finer philosophical points of being responsible and having power here. I mean that I think we're legislating some wrong things regarding the feudal hierarchy.

Consider counts. Counts don't get much love from Imperial law, in fact they're not mentioned in it at all. The reason I believe people would usually give for this is that counts don't actually rule over anyone so legislation pertaining to private citizens can take care of them. I'd like to submit that it's hardly true that the position of a count is meaningless. A count is the first authority in charge of a plot of land, possibly visible on the MCS map (well, always visible except in the case of Straylight). Zie almost always has a forum and is expected to police that forum and produce things in it. Counts are expected to create or choose flags for their counties, and participate in the affairs of their barony and duchy, too. There are other things - I recall Erik once wrote about the various things expected of nobles... there were quite a few of them.

No, the real reason why counts aren't mentioned in the lawbook can't be that they have too little power. I prefer to think of it as a matter of perspective, instead: They don't get mentioned, because there are layers of rulers between the Lawbook and the counts. To reach down through these layers to police local matters would simply be a needless violation of the principle of local prerogative.

Now consider barons. What do barons have that other people don't? Well, legally, after they got kicked out of the Landsraad again... not much. Imagine that a duchy stripped out the name of baronies completely and instead produced, say, a system with marquissates, with manors under them. Imagine the duke was very specific about that marquis wasn't just the local name for baron, but that the system was completely separate from any system of baronies and counties, but at the same time zie also turned out ducal legislation that brought the marquis' power as close to that of barons as possible.

What powers do barons have that marquises would, in this thought experiment, not have?

Most things, I'm pretty sure the duke could just add in. Certainly everything in Lawbook chapters II and III, except I'm not sure you could actually declare marquises to be noble. The MiniInt has a duty to place citizens in "underpopulated duchies or baronies" (VI. E. 1.), but seriously, the game in the MiniInt has always been about choosing a duchy, not a barony. I'm also pretty sure that a duke could allow marquises to hold court over their marquissate for the Judex - capability to bear witness to an oath (VII. D. 1.) is a tougher one though (I don't think it's ever actually been used however). Baronies are also mentioned in passing when dealing with rebellions and with fictional history - pretty sure dukes can more or less choose what they wish regarding those. And then there's the economy.

Basically, yeah. There are three things that, according to my quick legal analysis, barons can do by being barons: Be nobles, bear witness to an oath, and get a bounty for attaining the position.

I think it's time we got consistent and did one of these two things:

1) Finally declare together that barons actually are important and should have real power, and that baronial affairs should be consistently legislated from the Landsraad. Put limits on who can be baron, or how many barons there can be in a duchy, or how many people one must rule over to be a baron, or something. Give barons even more goodies that people lower in the extended feudal system don't get. Maybe try the Kehl again and figure out if we actually could give it some power once baronhood is suitably limited.

2) Finally declare together that baronial power is a vestige from the times before the Great Consolidation, and duchies can simply handle all matters of baronies (most will probably opt for the traditional system, in fact). Remove references to baronies in the Lawbook, replace them with policy documents that dukes can optionally decree as local law to declare the baronies+counties system to be in effect. In essence, transform Shireroth from a feudal hierarchy to a federation of duchies. Provide alternate mechanisms at the Imperial level for being able to be called a noble, being able to bear witness to an oath, and being eligible for a bounty (well, in my opinion, drop bountification for baronification altogether).

... or maybe you have a better idea?

Just musing here, not suggesting anything ....
Originally, wasn't it something like Barons needed a count or two under them, and Dukes needed at least 4 citizens? We basically have the citizenry to pull that off, now ...

That was the old system yes.

And I generally agree with what is being said here. The Judex stands by to answer any specific questions that need answering.

And as Judex, I would recognize any level just under Duke but above Count as being "baron" even if the power structure and name differ.

I'm favoring option 1 here. It looks like a lot less legislation that needs to be passed to make work.

I agree with option 1. With no Barons, it just...wouldn't make sense.

I don't think option 2 eliminates Baronies, it just makes them no part of the imperial government, just a part of their respective Duchies' governments.

Well I think Barons should have more power, cause it actually takes effort (unlike count) to become Baron.

If barons no longer would be regulated by imperial law, we would just as Ari said be little more than a federation of duchies. I think that if the imperial government is to regulate on the barony level, there has to be a clear reason for doing so. If barons are just super-counts, I really don't see the need. If however the barons are given some sort of power on the imperial level, the regulation would be justified.

Hence my favoring option 1. Perhaps getting the Kehl idea going again. Unfortunately, that's interfering with the Landsraad, which I cannot do. It's up to the rest of you.

"It's up to the rest of you" = get your asses in gear!

Hey, not a member. No voting rights.

Are they super counts or mini Dukes? I view them (thus far) as mini-Dukes ... they are like a Duke over a smaller region, have counts below them, and some get to vote in Ducal assemblies ... but that of course needs no Imperial organisation, just Ducal ...

Oroigawa Koreyasu wrote:"It's up to the rest of you" = get your asses in gear!

I will work on it... just need to get some school stuff over with first...

Well, other people are allowed to work on it, too, no?

But school comes first.

Oh, other people could work on it, I'll just have to convince them they're wrong about wanting to go with choice 1 first

Ari Rahikkala wrote:Oh, other people could work on it, I'll just have to convince them they're wrong about wanting to go with choice 1 first

Well, I just like choice 1 because it's less legislation, which means I have no say in it

I am actually in favour of option 2.


2) Finally declare together that baronial power is a vestige from the times before the Great Consolidation, and duchies can simply handle all matters of baronies (most will probably opt for the traditional system, in fact). Remove references to baronies in the Lawbook, replace them with policy documents that dukes can optionally decree as local law to declare the baronies+counties system to be in effect. In essence, transform Shireroth from a feudal hierarchy to a federation of duchies. Provide alternate mechanisms at the Imperial level for being able to be called a noble, being able to bear witness to an oath, and being eligible for a bounty (well, in my opinion, drop bountification for baronification altogether).



I will explain my reasoning later when I'm not so tired. It's 7:16 and I haven't slept all night :P

We need New Feudalism based on Baronies.

Jess wrote:Well I think Barons should have more power, cause it actually takes effort (unlike count) to become Baron.

Right now, in practice, whether it does depends entirely on your duke. For instance, Straylight and Elwynn currently have no baronial positions, Kildare and Yardistan do but all the positions are filled with active people, but Brookshire on the other hand does have an open Baronial position. So, presumably the easy way to become a baron would be to go to Brookshire. (I must add, though, that all of the people currently holding baronial positions there *have* earned their titles - but the fact is the pressure would still be lower as they'd need to do less reorganisation)

Beside that, there's the fact that any duke could perfectly well elevate all of their citizens to baronhood at the moment. They might be charged for fraud under LawBook XIII. F., though creating baronies to benefit from the Crown gift isn't actually mentioned in the law so the prosecution's case would be rather weak.

Oroigawa Koreyasu wrote:I'm favoring option 1 here. It looks like a lot less legislation that needs to be passed to make work.

This isn't a problem. A large volume of legislation to change only means a large amount of text to go through. I can deal with that myself. The legal problems with removing baronies from the law are a lot easier to work out than the problems with regulating them from the top.

b3n|<er|\| wrote:We need New Feudalism based on Baronies.

So, anyway, that's it for the Q&A. Now let's see if I can convince you why we're better off without legislation concerning baronies on the imperial level.

One, Shirithian culture has become too diverse for everything to fit into one hierarchy. I'm sorry to harp on about Straylightian baronies again, but my duchy's the one that's most obviously just not culturally meant to have the kind of top-heavy hierarchical administration that Shirithian tradition prescribes. With the current legislation, I have a choice to either follow my culture or be rewarded through the economy for appointing barons.

(come to think of it, I probably will create those baronies first, then draft the relevant bills. That way I'll get the reward money in my duchy - even if it'll be only for one baron under my current plans - and still get my way with the lawbook too. I'm willing to wait the three weeks before drafting said legislation if Andreas says I have to )

Two, I believe increasing the autonomy of duchies is a good idea in principle. It's just basic decentralisation of power, which we've seen work well in a lot of places... but not in micronationalism, because it's a rare thing for a micronation to even be stable and large enough to run several large distinct subdivisions with different governments like Shireroth. I believe we should take the chance to really be unique here because we're one of the few nations even capable of it.

Three, where removing baronies from the Lawbook removes questions, it removes questions that we've been fighting over for ages and that I'm personally tired of by now, and where it creates questions, it creates fresh, interesting ones. How *do* we determine who is a noble and who isn't, after all, and what if any privileges should the status confer anyway? Why hasn't the word "noble" ever held much legal significance in Shireroth even though it's so central to our government? Who should be eligible to bear witness to an oath, anyway? How is the oath system supposed to work again? How should people be rewarded for work they do for their duchies?

Four... this is a bit of a strange one, but I'll say it anyway. It's been a long time since we last annexed anyone . I'm not trying to found a program to reinvigorate the Shirithian culture of annexations, but I think two things that we are doing / should be doing will help it along anyway: The revival of the DiploCorps, and the expansion of duchal autonomy as per this thread. Consider it a small extra boon that might just pay off nicely in the future if we get lucky.

Ari Rahikkala wrote:(come to think of it, I probably will create those baronies first, then draft the relevant bills. That way I'll get the reward money in my duchy - even if it'll be only for one baron under my current plans - and still get my way with the lawbook too. I'm willing to wait the three weeks before drafting said legislation if Andreas says I have to )

I would call this fraud.

LB XIII, F, 1 wrote:1. Any attempt to exploit the economic system of Shireroth in a way deliberately contrary to the intention of its framers shall be known as fraud.

I don't think that creating a barony just to receive a bounty is in accordance with the intention of the framers of the economic system.

LB XIII, F, 3a wrote:3. The following actions are examples of fraud:
a. Transferring a noble title with the sole intent to benefit economically from the Crown's gift to new title-holders.

There is the more specific violation.

Feel free to try this. The Judex isn't doing anything anyway.

It's not fraud. Ari was planning to make baron(s) anyways. He was just saying he'd do it before removing the bounties rather than after.

Huh... well, there's an accusation I didn't expect to hear. Oh well, I've been putting it off for long enough anyway. I'll found those two baronies I've been planning for... tomorrow (going to sleep just about right now). That should clarify my plans regarding them sufficiently so that you can actually explain how I'm committing fraud, because right now I have no idea how that works

Ari, we dropped bounties for nobility, remember. The economic redistribution was a ONE OFF one. Any payments based on nobility are now gone. Removed. Nil. So you can't commit fraud (that way at least). Unless Jonas updated the Lawbook wrong ...

*has failed his sleep roll again, btw

Wait... we did? *checks Landsraad Passed Bills*

Whoa! We *did*! I just never read that bill because I'd delegated Landsraad duties off to Corey at the time... but... this is cool! (why do I miss it when stuff actually happens the way I wanted in Shireroth? )

It also means one less argument against removing baronies from the lawbook, btw . Since baronial promotions are no longer bountified, baronies don't serve much of an economic role...

Creating a barony is not fraud, but creating one only to benefit from the economic system is. But since barons are no longer bountified (I had actually forgotten about that change), creating a barony can't constitute fraud. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

I like the duke/baron/count system, but since we are so diverse, I'm in favor of letting the Duchies decide on there own subdivisions, subject to Imperial oversight, of course.