Shireroth

Oh mighty Kaiser!
Or now: Oh, nifty Steward!

Long, long, long, long, long, very long ago... okay, I'm exaggerating... there were ideas about creating a commonwealth to protect our culture, together with other nations.
In Batavia the King is planning the same, help develop and protect each other cultural heritage, working together with the economy,...

This gave me the idea to bring this subject back to think about it again. But let me be honest, I only see a chance in a cultural alliance and not in an economic or military alliance (if all our friends are in the commonwealth, against who would we fight? Our enemies? ).

So they won't recognize the Kaiser as their head of state?

I'm not quite sure I understand the purpose of this commonwealth...

Cultural treaties are all the rage these days, look at Craitland and Hurmu.

Then let us sign a cultural exchange treaty, not create something called a Commonwealth when it isn't that.

...I still don't understand...

If I understand the original idea right, it wasn't just a one-off cultural exchange treaty between Shireroth and x, it was more a commonwealth headed by Shireroth aimed at helping implement Shirithian culture into those nations that once had it (and thus making people less likely to demand to annex their land for Shireroth so it can be managed 'properly'). It's a commonwealth in the sense that Australia could still be part of the Commonwealth and be a republic - they recognise ancient ties to Shireroth, but not Shireroth as their head of state ... and it encourages good alliances because people from Shireroth will go and be active in visiting and getting to know those nations while they also have people here. It's an alliance in the best sense, not one of those boring "we've got a treaty, we never visit you, but we fought together in the Battle of Jeremy's Nose, so we may as well support you in war."

At least, that's how I envisaged it. It could also be a useful base bloc for Shireroth to use in future wars as core allies (because, lets face it, the sort of people that would agree to such a thing are nations like Batavie, Novatainia, Amokolia etc who appreciate Shireroth), now rumour has it Gralus will collapse entirely.

Does a commonwealth not require mutual recognition of a head of state? Otherwise I think it would be an alliance.

That's where it threw me off, too...

I think I understand it, thanks to Andreas, but I believe Commonwealth is the wrong word. Another, better word should be used, perhaps?

Hesam Jayatar wrote:Does a commonwealth not require mutual recognition of a head of state? Otherwise I think it would be an alliance.

Well, I was assured in Republic debates that if Australia became a Republic, we could still participate in the Commonwealth Games, so apparently not.

Pact, maybe?

We could always make a commonwealth were the nations have a shared currency and all use the bank... Just a thought... for our economy to really work, there needs to be more people.

Andreas the Wise wrote:

Hesam Jayatar wrote:Does a commonwealth not require mutual recognition of a head of state? Otherwise I think it would be an alliance.

Well, I was assured in Republic debates that if Australia became a Republic, we could still participate in the Commonwealth Games, so apparently not.

Pact, maybe?

Yes, a republic can still be a part of the Commonwealth of Nations, indeed many are (India for example). But the entire organization recognizes Queen Elizabeth as Head of the Commonwealth.

Erik Mortis wrote:We could always make a commonwealth were the nations have a shared currency and all use the bank... Just a thought... for our economy to really work, there needs to be more people.

I think that could work... later... but I'm not sure it's a good idea to have a shared currency. If one nation economy fails it will have consequences for the other member states. Maybe a system like MX2 could work.

We've just changed currencies, I'd rather not have to do it again and I'd like to be in the union.

If you want, I can dig out the old Jasonian exchange rate formula and update it ...

I don't need to dig it up, I have the old exchange rate formula.

Fuck exchange rates. SHARED currency. This would allow for trade between nations. Exchange rates just fuck things up. We've got 100,000 erb. just distribute that among the nations. If we need more money, We'll make it.

Have the spare money held by the commonwealth itself. Not any particular government.

It would take a little more work, but I'm sure I could get the bank to organize with nations, and subdivisions.

Don't fuck exhange rates. They are cool
But if we want that they work it would be necessary to make transactions without sending a mail so an admin knows someone wants to place money from the one bank to the other.

It would take a little more work, but I'm sure I could get the bank to organize with nations, and subdivisions.

This could be interested... Maraguo could join... but I'm affraid Batavia will not give up its own currency. Don't forget the erb is a Shirerithian currency, not a currency of other nations.
Maybe you could create something like MX2, with the possibility of having a different currency with another value. The system can be placed on the place where the Shirerithian bank is now.

The erb could be the Batavian currency, if they joined the Commonwealth, like some commonwealth countries use sterling... though not the actual sterling currency... but Erik's point justifies using our currency in more than name.

Yes, Benkern has a good point. Batavia could call the erb by a different name. If Babkha joined it could be called rial; if Stormark joined, a krona. But they would all be worth the same. Perhaps a neutral term could be used by the international bank, "credit" or something.

b3n|<3r|\| wrote:The erb could be the Batavian currency, if they joined the Commonwealth, like some commonwealth countries use sterling... though not the actual sterling currency... but Erik's point justifies using our currency in more than name.

Why the erb? Shireroth and other member states can use the Kruys.
No, I prefer an (automaticated) exchange system based on the Jasononian formula. So no nation has the feeling of losing some of its independence. And I'm scared taking the erb as currency some people (*looks to republicans *) will think we become a colony of Shireroth.

I know that creating an automatic exhange rate system is hard to create, so I'm searching after the MX2-script (without any success).


EDIT: Oh, as Benkern meant it that way... than I think it would solve much problems. In the Batavian Empire, and later Commonwealth, we did the same to satisfy our member states if they wanted more autonomy.
It could work, but then it's important that:
- nation accounts can get seperated.
- that if you go to the bank you see, for example, it aren't erbs but Kruys when you are doing transactions.
- that there are atleast admin accounts that can control the moves of their nation bank accounts (in Batavia the Tax Agency needs to look after possible fraud and needs to investigate how much money someone has, etc.).
- maybe the possibility to tax incoming and outgoing money?

No tax for transfers between nations. That would only discourage such transactions anyway. This is a currency union with the different currencies pegged to each other at the same exchange rate.

In the bank they are just called. "Funds" Nothing about erb.

Exchange rates are a bitch and alway.. ALWAYS muck things up. 1 unified, equal currency. The different nations can call it what ever they wants.. It's all just "funds" to the bank.

We did Exchange rates long ago.. it really did just make a mess of things.

And it would be 1 bank program for all the nations. Technically different nations can run the banks on their own servers, but they would all just connect to the same database. I could do the needed renaming to take the Shire out of it.. that's not even a problem. Infact.. I might start doing that already. To Universalize the bank. All I have to do is edit the config file, and change the name of the tables to match.

If we did this (and I'm not sure there will be that many nations who want to give up their currency - I'm sure there are more who would join the commonwealth without it) it would all be on the same bank. Otherwise far, far too complicated. The things to consider then, however, are that it's
a. Illegal (currently) as it would lead to non-Shirithians owning currency.
b. It has the potential to mess with the voting thing. What if I'm in three nations in the commonwealth, say, and all decide to start with an initial float? My voting power in Shireroth is increased dramatically. What if one gov gives out huge bounties and another small? Even if they're on separate banks (a BAD idea) its no far if I can't transfer from one to the other. I could have 5000 erb in Shireroth ... transfer it to Maraguo the next day for a different vote, to Novatainia the next day for another vote.

Bottomline - combined currency doesn't work too well with vote-based currency ...

Mike Fors wrote:No tax for transfers between nations. That would only discourage such transactions anyway. This is a currency union with the different currencies pegged to each other at the same exchange rate.

It's needed, otherwise certain people could use the system to avoid taxes.


But I'm affraid Batavia will not join something like that, Gaius has made a system to calculate the value of the stocks of a company via the bank (in the admin panel, the admin can chose to select a company account, and fill in certain things that are needed to calculate it). The system isn't approved yet, but works and makes it easy.

Not if it's illegal to move money to another nation in order to avoid taxation. That could be a point in a treaty, audit cooperation.

Mike Fors wrote:Not if it's illegal to move money to another nation in order to avoid taxation. That could be a point in a treaty, audit cooperation.

And how do you know that someone wants to avoid taxes? I can move my money between Shireroth and Batavia because and think of an excuse.
The Batavian Government asks no taxes on international transactions but it can happen in the future, and then we want to know if there is possibility to do it.

Hmm.. I see the validity of the voting issue. I have no solution at this time. Once again, duel citizenship messing things up.

A way of combatting dual citizenship would be to allow member-states to tax their citizens, wherever their accounts may be.

But that would be evil.

Kaiser Ayreon wrote:A way of combatting dual citizenship would be to allow member-states to tax their citizens, wherever their accounts may be.

But that would be evil.

Then the total of your money get taxed two times? Most states work with %-taxes and that wouldn't be fair.
The more we talk about it, the more I begin to think that asking taxes on outgoing and incoming money is the best solution. Nations aren't forced to ask taxes.

Currency exchange should be handled the same way as RL - actual exchange between people. For example, if I had a bunch of erb that I wanted to trade in for CITRA* points, I could probably talk to Andreas and work out some sort of trade. I'd transfer some erb to him on Shireroth and he'd transfer some points to me on CITRA. No money is created or destroyed, and it's completely fair.

Either way you run into problems of what the erb is. Do you really want to let foreigners earn votes in the Landsraad? And since they're not Dukes, what use is it, since they can't vote anyways? It would have no value whatsoever... just as someone trying to trade for CITRA points has no motivation if they don't fight in CITRA.

So currency exchanges usually work themselves out if you have people willing to trade and both currencies have value to each person.

*-Constant Inter-Tokian Recwar Association. Basically, money equals military strength. Get more points, you get bigger OrBat.