Shireroth

After initially opposing him, I've come to agree with Erik (at least partly) - that citizenship bounties should be considerably reduced.
200 for a Duke might be fair. Maybe. Giving another 200 for being Steward isn't. The only way it could possibly be construed as fair is if it's counted as the wages of the Steward for all the hard work they will do ... and thus they don't get bountified for it. But then look at Harold, who did nothing, and got 200 anyway. Any Duchy which gets a Steward suddenly has so much dough their Landsraad vote sores ...

While it made sense as an initial distribution, I'd like to propose it be changed now:
New Citizen - 50
Baron - 100 (or +50)
Duke - 150 (or + 50 or +100)
Steward - 200 (or + 50 or +100 or +200)
Kaiser - 400 (a blanket amount paid to the Household account and assumedly used for rewarding loyal vassals etc, not for personal voting).

I'd also like to propose the three Stewards who received the full 400, as an act of good will to the rest of the nation (who might, for example, be a little suspicious of Elwynn or Yardistan's huge wealth), and to show they're not greedy, give away 100 of those funds to various deserving citizens for cultural development.

Hmm... How is the new citizenship bounty reduced? IIRC, I got 50 Erb for becoming a citizen.

The new citizenship isn't, and doesn't need to be. It's the Dukes and Stewards that were getting too much and have it reduced for people who now rise to that level.

Well, we have had a number of stewards recently, and taxation falls most heavily on the Dukes.

Since the creation of the Bank, I have given away over 200 erb, and I intend to give away more.

I urge others to do so as well. Or, if they don't want to bother, donate it to the Jacobus Fund for the Arts and Sciences, and i'll give it away.

According to my records it's only a little over 100, but yes, the point is there ...

I'm counting the original 120 as well.

Original 120? you had an original 20 from the war, where did the hundred come from?

Oh, how I need a transaction logger ...

RTFDAFA.

Oh, sorry. For those of you who don't speak Acronym, what I meant to say was that the Landsraad recently passed the Distribution and Fraud Act, which included the following change to the bounties system:

1. All new citizens shall receive 50 erb upon joining Shireroth.
2. Any citizen who achieves a higher status within the hierarchy of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth shall be issued a congratulatory gift of money from the Imperial Crown according to his or her new rank, as follows:
a. A commoner becoming a Baron will receive 50 erb.
b. A commoner or Baron becoming a Duke will receive 100 erb.
c. A commoner, Baron, or Duke becoming the Kaiser will receive 300 erb

So the numbers have already been reduced even beyond what this act suggests.

The Distribution and Fraud Act didn't include a bounty for the Steward, because my reading of the Charter and Lawbook suggest that the Steward is not meant to be a position per se with its own set of responsibilities, but a formal way of having a backup if the Kaiser goes AWOL. The Kaiser should be able to hire and fire Stewards whenever he wants: "I'm going on vacation for a week, Bob is Steward", "Okay, I'm back - wait, I've got a doctor's appointment tomorrow, John is Steward for the day" and there's no reason to give each of those people 400 erb.

Er, Yvain ...It doesn't actually reduce the proper bounties, except that now the leap is reduced (that is, a commoner becoming Kaiser skips the intervening payouts he should have recieved as Duke). You still get +100 for becoming a Duke, you still get +300 for becoming Kaiser. I hope you weren't thinking I was misreading my own legislation - I have always interpreted these as different levels of payout, and you get paid the difference of what you're owed when you advance. But that difference is too high, in my opinion ..

But...but...the bounties on the act are mostly less than the bounties you're proposing be the new standard, yet you titled this thread "reducing the citizenship bounty". Take a look. Assuming everyone goes to each position from the next highest:

Commoner: +50 on the DAFA, +50 on your first post
Baron +50 on the DAFA, +50 on your first post
Duke +100 on the DAFA, +50 on your first post
Steward: +0 on the DAFA, +50 on your first post
Kaiser: +300 on the DAFA, +400 on your first post

Can I just ask what the hell a DAFA is?

Anti-fraud act, I should think ...
Yvain, when you made the act, I guess I just skimmed it and assumed you were using the current bounties and expressing it slightly clearer. I see you changed them slightly, but still, if I understand it right, mine is reducing things. Apart from perhaps the Kaiser thing, which Hasan pointed out is deposited into the Household Account and kept separate from the Kaiser's individual earnings ....

I suggest this:

Citizen: 20
Baron: 20
Duke: 40
Kaiser: 100

There. Nice and reduced. I know that new barons and dukes get considerably less than before, but hey, tough luck.

Perhaps when setting the proper bounties, you should think in percentages of 5000? "How many percent of the total money in circulation is this image worth?"

Now I'm thoroughly confused. Are you suggesting that as the total amount they get, or the increase each time?

Ok, let me try comparing my and Yvain's things again ...
Yvain:
New citizen: 50
Baron: +50 from Citizen, total 100
Duke: + 100 from Citizen or Baron, total 150 or 200
Steward - Not a cent, total whatever they had before.
Kaiser: + 300 from any other position, total 350 (if count-->Kaiser), 400 (if Baron -->Kaiser) or 450 (if Count-->Duke-->Kaiser) or 500 (if count-->Baron-->Duke-->Kaiser)

Essentially, apart from removing Steward, Yvain's system is the same as the old one (as I originally interpreted it) with the exception that those who jump positions don't get paid the intervening amounts as they used to.

Andreas:
New Citizen: 50
Baron: + 50 from Citizen, total 100 (no change here, I consider 100 about the average amount per Shirithian)
Duke: +50 from Baron, + 100 from Citizen, total 150.
Steward: +50 from Duke, +100 from Baron, +150 from Citizen, total 200.
Kaiser - 400 (a blanket amount paid to the Household account and assumedly used for rewarding loyal vassals etc, not for personal voting).
Note in Yvain's system the Kaiser is paid anything from 350 to 500 in total into his personal, Duchy voting account. In the old Hasan system (and the one I was working off), the Kaiser was paid 500 into the Household, Shirekeep account. And now is paid only 400. If that seems too much, reduce it to 300 - I don't mind, I don't expect I'll ever make Kaiser.
So under my system, people are not penalised for skipping positions (more fair, in my mind), but the Duke gets the same or less than Yvain's bill, and the Kaiser gets paid an amount specifically for Kaiseral duties, instead of a lot of money for him personally. I do put the Steward back into the equation, but he gets half of what he would previously have got.

Does that make any more sense, and why I can't understand Yvain's comment that mine pays more?

My proposal is the amount they get when they become baron or duke etc., period. If you skip a step, too bad. That is:

When you become a citizen you get 20
When you become a baron you get 20
When you become a duke you get 40 (that means that if you were a baron before you became duke, you should now have gotten 80 total since you became a citizen)
When you become Kaiser you get 100 (that means that if you were a baron and got payed for that, and later became a duke and got paid for that, you should now have gotten 180 total since you became a citizen)

Somebody has probably already suggested this, but I will as well. How about a cut-off date? You have to claim your bounty within 48 hours of making the thing you want to get money for, or you don't get a dime.

No. Cut-off dates put it the wrong way around. For example, with these positions you have to actually hold them for 3 weeks to be guaranteed payment (after being pressured to pay Harold out). I'm tending to see it as MiniTrade looks at the last month and pays bounties for cultural things during it ... as many take time to fully develop.

And I feel yours reduces things too much ... citizens need to be able to start with 50 and get 100 by Baron, otherwise they have nothing to spend ... and are encouraged just to horde.

I think that giving 1% of the total amount of money to every new citizen is overdoing it a bit.

Ah well, we'll agree to disagree. And see what the Dukes think ...

Agree to disagree? Never! I am ALWAYS right! Mwahahaha!!! I will ravish your lands. HAHAHA!!
*Slaps myself*
So, yeah, we disagree.

I say we remove ALL gifts/bounties for achieving higher levels. It's just a drain on the government budget.

Or what Erik said. You get a bounty for what you do, not what someone else does when he or she makes you a baron or whatever.

Since people were reluctant to have to pay for the title, with logic such as you earned it through merit.. etc... then shouldn't the position itself be reward enough?

*nods*

Being a Duke is cool beans. If anything, it's worth paying for. Getting paid for it is slightly odd; surely the Duke-to-be wants to be Duke? If not, there are others who would, I'm sure. So why should the government give him anything other than recognition of his Ducal authority?

....says the former duke............

Exactly. I know how much it kicks ass.

That said, there are responsibilities and worries, and it does tire you after a while... need a rest.

Jacobus Loki wrote:....says the former duke............

Says the former steward, who got 400 erb, to the former Duke, who got 200 erb ....

In the interests of fairness ...

(The following is toingue-in-cheek. )

Fairness.

Without benkern, Jonas, spangle (who isn't even here to pick on) and little old whatsisname, there wouldn't even be a Shireroth today.

Probably.

(I can see a bottle of The Credit floating by in my mind's eye....)

So we got a few erb. Mine is recycling into the economy pretty quickly.

And yes, I was grossly overpaid. Think of it as a severance, unemployment, since I was (gently, of course!) booted out of my much bigger office to wander the streets. 400 erb vs. the entire treasury. A bargain......

We never sorted this.

Or the bounty bill.

Thoughts again? (if people really want a dramatic decrease in bounties, we take Hesam' suggestion, double the money in circulation, but still pay the same bounties. I'd still rather just drop the whole Steward and duke thing down, but still ...)

Erik Mortis wrote:I say we remove ALL gifts/bounties for achieving higher levels. It's just a drain on the government budget.

QFT. I'm going to bed in 5.. 4.. so, before that, to condense my positions on the economy:

- no bounties for achieving positions from now on
- no Imperial fees for achieving positions
- no back taxes for bounties for positions previously achieved
- if we decide to keep the bounties for positions, double the money in circulation to make their effect saner; if we toss the bounties, don't bother printing
- even if we decide to keep the bounties, fix the contradiction between Duchal local prerogative and the economy (Dukes can make free money for their duchy by appointing barons, for instance, consider Brookshire where everyone is a baron vs. Elwynn where everyone is a count)
- get the first batch of cultural bounties out with pure Andreas/Hasan work; figure out how to better allocate cultural bounties later