Shireroth

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:52 am**

Chapter XIII: Economy

I. Taxation.
1. The Ministry of Trade shall be empowered to conduct national taxation with one weeks notice to the general populous. It announce its intention to conduct taxation when one of two conditions are met:
i. The Crown Account is under 500 erb.
ii. Taxes have not been levied for a month.

2. The Kaiser may stop a tax after it is announced but before it is levied.

3. The Amount of taxation shall be 100 erb from each Duchy. Where possible, this will be taken directly from the Duke zirself. Where the Duke has less than 100 erb, this shall be taken from the richest citizen, and so on. Where the entire Duchy has less than 100 erb, all the erb they have shall be taken, and it is at the discretion of the Ministry of Trade and the Kaiser about whether the remaining sum will be taken when it becomes available.

4. Dukes are empowered to conduct taxation within their Duchy in order to recoup their loss from the National Taxation.

5. The amount and timing of taxation may be changed by the Kaiser of Act of Landsraad.

Notes: i and ii allow taxes to be either as needed, or monthly, or both. To keep everyone happy.
3. Is worded in such a way as to avoid possible fraud. That is, we take the money one way or another. If the Duchy has no money, we can cancel your debt (if no money is legit) or merely remove money from you as you add it back into your account until you pay it all off (if you're trying to fraud us). That means a Duchy can fraud to avoid tax ... only if it never wants to vote in the Landsraad again.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:09 am**

That's unfair! Straylight has around 300 erbs, if they lose 100 erbs they are even more poor (sorry, Straylight)!
I understand why the Duke is taxed. But how can the Dukes tax their citizens if they don't know how much money they have?

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:13 am**

Jonas, we discussed per Duchy or per Person taxes, and the general consensus was that per Duchy was fairer.

But you raise a good point about other citizens ... I forget you guys can't see every account like I can ...

I guess they just have to be honest and declare the money they have? (the Judex can always audit if disputes emerge) I leave it up to the individual duke to organise. He might just say "right, there's five of us, each chip in 20," for example.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:18 am**

It would be more easy, and take less time for the Dukes if they could see the accounts and amounts of money. Maybe the admins could do something to make this possible?

And I support the taxes per Duchy, I even think its the best way to create an active economy, by giving the Dukes some financial responsibility.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:22 am**

To part 1: Ask Erik, might be hard ... but worth doing if it isn't.

2. Then vote AYE

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:25 am**

But it's a lot of money, of course.
100 erbs... it's our whole cultural financial present we got from the Kaiser.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:35 am**

I don't even want to think what the bureaucracy would be like if we went for per-citizen taxation. Straylight aye (367).

Hey, I guess here's a place where I could safely say "this hurts me more than it hurts you" (-:

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:57 am**

Yes, that's true. It hurts you more.

Kildare votes Aye (633).

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:32 am**

Yardistan votes Aye (988).

I must say Hypotomoose must have been at work for Yardistan's vote to be that astronomically high!

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:36 pm**

It was the Jacobus fund he never got when he was Steward ...

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:01 pm**

Elwynn Nay (715)

I would prefer a flat rate of fifty per duchy per month.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:37 pm**

Brookshire AYE (784)

Between bounties and salaries, 50 erb per Duchy won't be enough. 100 erb per Duchy probably won't be enough either, but we can get creative.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:33 pm**

Kaiser will veto this unless the Kaiser is empowered to tax.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:34 pm**

Provided that I am empowered to veto things

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:43 pm**

You can veto this. It's not a matter of Landsraad internal procedure.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:31 pm**

What do you want to tax for, your niftiness? One would assume that the Ministry of Trade is your representative taxing on your behalf ... and you can direct uses of the Crown Account as you will ... without needing to tax privately ...

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:41 pm**

I think we should have a duchy income tax instead. That way it would get proportional.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:36 pm**

Either that or we have a kill tax of a certain percentage established by the Landsraad or Kaiser.

Say that at the beginning of Beternionsmoon it is the following setup:

Brookshire 1200
Elwynn 100
Kildare: 9400
Straylight 600
Yardistan 700

The Landsraad declared in the days leading up to Biternionsmoon that the tax will be 10% for each Duchy.

So Kildare pays 940 erbs in tax while Elwynn gets away with only 10.

This is to ensure proportionality. I don't like flat taxes. They're unfair.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:43 pm**

My Kaiser, I think you and I have very different interpretations of 'Fair'.

The entire point of this money system is to horde up wealth. To make your Duchal vote powerful. People work so hard on businesses because they want to accumulate erb, and know they have to work hard to make others bear to part with theirs. Taxing proportionally entirely defeats the purpose. It means that the hard working Duchy loses significantly, and the Duchy who don't care about erb and spent most of their money without earning anything doesn't lose a cent. A proportional tax is, in my mind, entirely unfair - and a flat tax (whether on Duchy or per head) is the only fair way to do this.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:52 pm**

Lord Atterock,

You have made a good point. I will consult my advisors before I decide to veto something.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:04 pm**

So the Praetor may declare this Passed?

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:07 pm**

I wish to consult my advisors first and hear them if that is acceptable to the Praetor. If not, he may declare it passed.

Posted: **Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:57 am**

Of course, Your Niftiness, I give you the time if you need it.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:39 am**

Your Niftiness? Did you have enough time to consult?

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:05 am**

I am sorry, Lord Praetor, but not yet.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:24 am**

No problem, Your Niftiness.
Then I can annoy Andreas a little bit longer with it.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:28 am**

I will not hinder the passage of this bill.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:37 am**

Damn... ehmm... I mean passed!

Shireroth

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