Shireroth

3. False Citizenship Applications
a. The citizenship status of an individual shall be suspended by the Ministry of Immigration if the individual is discovered to be attempting to register another citizenship application under a false identity.

What is the nature of this suspension? Is it merely a temporary suspension of posting rights awaiting action by the Arbiter, or is it a temporary or permanent banishment from the realm

A person discovered under such circumstances would have their citizenship suspended and be referred to the Imperial Arbiter for trial.
The suspension of citizenship entails the withdrawal of those granted privileges which distinguish a citizen from a denizen.

If found guilty of false identity they would then be banished for within the tariffed period depending on perceived severity of their crime

Thereafter, or if found innocent, it is for the individual or an interested party acting on their behalf, to apply to the Minister for the lifting of the suspension order.

Okay. So it is a suspension of citizenship privileges, not the citizenship in itself. Perhaps that should be added for clarity? Great bill, BTW. We had something similar in Cyberia and Morovia.

I like this new provision. It should eliminate most people's attempts to perpetrate a fraud on this country. This is not the first attempt at deception. IP addresses will reveal the physical location of the applicant, so trying to lie about one's location (for example, claiming to be from Europe when one is located in the states) will not succeed. We have no use for fraud here. This is not the same at all as simulation or switching or pretending to be someone else for purposes of a story line.

And what with sisters and brothers that use the same computer?

I'm sure they will identify themselves as such. My daughter and I sometimes used the same computer, but we had totally diffeent information, and we disclosed our correct location, etc. This is not the same as attempted fraud.

Perhaps the Landsraad should define what Suspension entails somewhere?

I thought so too, but apparently that isn't needed. I also think that upon a verdict of innocence the suspension should be lifted automatically.

I don't like this. If it's true what Hypaties mom said, that it happened before, then it proves it isn't a problem. It proves it was solved in the past, and it can be solved in the future without writing new laws.
I want to avoid that we make a bureaucratic nation of Shireroth, and I'm sure of it that people if they want it, can avoid the security.

Before we know it, we will get more and more laws and the Shirerithian spirit will be gone.

The Ministry can disapprove those double citizens and if they have got citizenship the kkaiser can take it away. I don't see any reason to vote a law about this.

Maybe leave the punishment side open ended?

It is likely that there are various reasons to attempt a fraud, and levels of damage inflicted. A sliding scale of punishment might fit better than a one size fits all approach.

0->infinity is a good scale.

hypatias mom wrote:It is likely that there are various reasons to attempt a fraud, and levels of damage inflicted. A sliding scale of punishment might fit better than a one size fits all approach.

A tariff range of a fortnight to a year is fairly flexible...

I like the idea proposed by Mike that this is a serious enough situation to warrant a trial in the Imperial Judex. I am sure that when and iff these charges against Jess are confirmed, the proper punishment, if any, will be meted out to him.

It would be the Kaiser (not bound by the requirement anyways) or the Arbiter who set the punishment. This law doesn't stop the Kaiser from being lenient, but it stops the Arbiter from having complete control over the punishment.

Maybe change the punishment to an suggestion.

The Kaiser could pardon or reduce the sentence issued by the Arbiter.

I don't much like this. It is, as far as I know, our first attempt to create a true "criminal" offense in Shireroth aside from the obvious ones like hacking our forums.

If someone wants to try to join under a fake name, well, it might be malicious, it might be in good fun, and it might just be stupid. What it isn't is disruptive. Since we're not a democracy, we don't have to worry in the same way as Cyberia or Morovia about one party bringing in papels to throw the election. I suggest that we deal with this the same way we do everything else - informally. If the person gets caught being stupid, we mock them. If the person gets caught doing something that could harm Shireroth, we strip their positions and ostracize them. If the person succeeds, we share a good laugh and learn from the experience.

As soon as we begin criminalizing things that aren't directly harmful to the state and might even add an element of depth and interest, we loose the genie from its bottle and start on a slippery slope that ends off in Cyberia somewhere (no offense to the Cyberians).

Disclaimer: I know of many people, some highly placed in the current government, who have joined Shireroth in the past under false identities for personal, non-malicious reasons. I did it myself once without getting caught - a perk of being the head of the spy agency at the time, I guess. Sometimes, especially for us old folks, there's a need to start over fresh without a reputation to precede us. And no, I will not be confirming or denying anyone's guesses as to historical alternate identities. It's in the past for a reason.