Shireroth

It seems to me that there is nothing stopping the Kaiser editing the lawbook through decree.

Any precedent? Am I right? Can this be done (directly, not by say making a Duke propose a bill or threatening all the Dukes with their Duchies being dissolved unless they vote aye)?

If it were to happen, would the decreebook be changed at all?

Just of the top of my head. Since Imperial Decrees (DecreeBook) are superior to Acts of the Landsraad (LawBook), any decree that contradicts a part of the LawBook would effectively repeal that provision in the LawBook, but would still be a part of the DecreeBook. The Charter also states that all decrees are to be a part of the DecreeBook, therefore the Kaiser can't amend the LawBook as such. There is presedence as well. Some Kaisers have issued decrees regulating the internal proceedings of the Landsraad.

I see. That makes sense.

Thing is... the lawbook is not defined as the law. It is the place where Landsraad decisions So... if something is the law, but is not laid down by the Landsraad, it does not really belong in the lawbook. It belongs in a different document, and since the only other institution that can make law is the Kaiser, these laws go in the decreebook. Makes sense, right? But as I say, the Lawbook is the Landsraad's stuff. So would that section edited by decree be removed from the lawbook (and moved to the decreebook) or edited? Leaving it inaccurate is of course not an option.

Example:

Article I, section 1 of the LawBook: All balls must be blue.

Later, the Kaiser issues Imperial Decree #XXX, stating:

All balls must be yellow.

This repeals the provision in the LawBook. I would suggest, though there is no requirement, that the section of the LawBook be deleted or at least crossed over. But there are real life laws where this doesn't happen. Take the US constitution for example. Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 states that "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons." This means that only 3/5ths of all slaves were counted, and no untaxed Native Americans at all. This provision is still there, but effectively repealed by the 13th and 14th amendments.

b3n|<3r|\| wrote:Thing is... the lawbook is not defined as the law.

Actually, the Charter states specifically that "All law set down by the Landsraad shall be recorded in the Lawbook."

The law set down by the Landsraad is not the whole law though is it? (Law =/= Lawbook, Law = Lawbook + Decreebook => Lawbook = Law - Decreebook) If only it were, trying to find a specific law would be so much easier! Often I find myself wishing when Erik were Kaiser he hadn't brushed away Bill's unified (and colourful!) Decree-Lawbook idea so brusquely.

You're right there. The difference between the LawBook and DecreeBook is that laws made by the Landsraad goes into the LawBook, and laws made by the Kaiser goes into the DecreeBook. A unified body of law should perhaps be looked into again. The source for a specific law could be put in a note after saying (Imperial Decree, ID) or (Act of the Landsraad, AL).

Wouldn't it be possible for the Kaiser, if he really wanted, to make a decree stating "The Lawbook will be amended to read 'all balls are yellow'"? This decree would then go in the decreebook, and the Lawbook would be changed accordingly.

In this situation, though, there would be nothing stopping the Landsraad from changing it back, unless the Kaiserial decree specifically banned them from doing so. Or that's my interpretation.

Scott of Hyperborea wrote:Wouldn't it be possible for the Kaiser, if he really wanted, to make a decree stating "The Lawbook will be amended to read 'all balls are yellow'"? This decree would then go in the decreebook, and the Lawbook would be changed accordingly.

I suppose he could say that, but the result would be the same either way.

Scott of Hyperborea wrote:In this situation, though, there would be nothing stopping the Landsraad from changing it back, unless the Kaiserial decree specifically banned them from doing so. Or that's my interpretation.

No, the Landsraad can't change it back since they cannot amend the DecreeBook, nor can they take any action that violates the supremacy of the Kaiser. If the Kaiser says all balls are to be yellow, the Landsraad can't change that.

Ah, but the Kaiser didn't decree "all balls must be yellow." He simply decreed that the Lawbook would (as a one-time case) be amended to say that. The Landsraad can't edit the decree, but it can edit the lawbook.

I think Erik actually used to do this sometimes, when he wanted a law to exist but he also wanted the Landsraad to be able to edit it if they didn't like it later.

Sounds like splitting hairs to me. It depends on whether you make a narrow or wide interpretation of this sentence in the Charter:

"All Imperial Law, set down by the Kaiser shall be recorded in the Decreebook."

I have no time to expound on this. But not only is it allowed, but I personally encourage it. It's why I worked to merge much of the decreebook into the Lawbook.

Since some law MUST be above the landsraad, we have the decreebook, but since most law the Landsraad needs access to, the Kaiser can and should write law to edit the Lawbook.

If that is the case, Erik, I don't understand what problem you had with the idea of a unified lawbook with different colours for laws "protected" by Kaiserial decrees.

Not that your problems really matter since you're no longer Kaiser. But since you boomed that, I'd like to know what other problems you had. Personally I find it irritating when I say something because I've just looked at the lawbook, then someone says "Uh, Decree" and I look and oh yes there it is plain as day.

I can also see perks with having a unified body of law.

I WANT a unified book. I never denied that. But unifying the book, but distinguishing law based on color or font.. is not wise in my idea. And it's pointless. The law isn't unified. I want a truly unified book. But other opposed it. And I found some issues with it.

As it stands I'm trying to phase out the decreebook. so I encourage all law to go in the lawbook. but some law HAS to go in a book above the lawbook. Basically, all that is left in the decreebook. There was a time when the decreebook would have been part of the Charter, but when we reduced the Charter in size... it had to go to the decreebook.

But yes, my problem was in how the idea was implemented, cause it didn't actually implement the change. by having to separate books it prevents confusion based on seeing one book and thinking it's all equal. and just yeah.. the idea of separating law based on a color seemed like a problem waiting to happen.

Scott of Hyperborea wrote: In this situation, though, there would be nothing stopping the Landsraad from changing it back, unless the Kaiserial decree specifically banned them from doing so. Or that's my interpretation.

Imperial Veto power is how the Kaiser protects it.

Gods - I don't think I have ever been this powerful in a micronation. Ever.

Rather scary

I know I know.. multi-posting..

Scott is right. The Kaiser can and should decree changes to the lawbook, which could then be edited later. The lawbook not the decree itself.

Once the lawbook is edited, the decree has run its course and hold no further power.

Further, I think I might need to review the Charter again and revagueafy some things so they don't contradict. And respecify other things... Then get the Kaiser to decree the amendment, and get the Praetor to agree to it.

Mike, I do kinda wanna remind you of a provision, and a tradition, of spirit of the law vs letter of the law here in Shireroth. Language is inaccurate by default, something we recognize in Shireroth. As Part of the Judex, and as rulers (if you happen to be one), it's our job to keep in mind what makes sense, and what was meant when the law was written. What makes sense in context of the time, and take into account whether someone meant to break the law.

I love how people are starting to scrutinize all those points, loopholes and paradoxes I've been dealing with for years...

You have almost absolute power.. yep...

And we in the Judex are still finding our power....

Yes. I am working on my understanding of the law as it fits into the context of Shireroth. I will get better. I just need to de-Cyberianize. MALARBOR DEMANDS IT! Or something...

You are doing very well I think. It's hard to balance the letter with the spirit. And we don't always get it right...

I think the best way to deal with it is for people to live by the letter, and for us as arbiters, and for rulers as arbiters to look at the spirit of the law, and intent of the people, if they do violate the letter.

So, I suppose that makes the motto of the Judex: Live by the Letter, Rule by the Spirit.