Shireroth

I ask that the Landsraad grant us Barons a Council of our own within the Landsraad. It would be a sub chamber of the Landsraad for just Barons, and would have no legislative powers, but would allow a place for us barons to come together and discuss matters. We would create our own rules for doing things. The Landsraad could dismiss the council at any time. And the Praetor could come in and speak if he/she wished.

In exchange, perhaps we barons would agree to stay out of the main Landsraad chamber, so as to help keep things orderly there. But if we create a head of our council, perhaps he/she would be allowed to speak in the Landsraad main chamber on behalf of the barons as a whole.

This would allow barons a place to come together and discuss matters, and stay out of the way of the Dukes and their voting. It would give a unified and organized means for us barons to address the Landsraad, helping to maintain order in the main chamber.

Further, we would not be taking any power away from the dukes nor imposing on their powers. Nor would this interfere with the proposed economic voting system.

I could write up a bill before the landsraad to change the lawbook to create this Council of Barons, or The Kehl. as I would like to see it called. A Kehl being a type of council, with the same literary roots as the Landsraad's name. (A Dune book)

Would I have the support of my fellow Barons in this? Would the Dukes support this move?

A cleaner and more organize Landsraad, a place to tuck away us pesky barons and a place for us barons to call our own and pretend we are special. I think everyone wins!

I rather like the idea of a separate deliberative body subordinate to the Landsraad. However, I think most items of concern are or can be discussed or negotiated in the Front Gate. Except for the exclusivity element, I wonder if this "lower chamber" is really essential. But I will bow to the will of the majority. It is certainly an interesting concept.

Personally I'm happy just voicing my views in the Landsraad, but if such a thing were created I'd certainly use it.

Carol is absolutely right. Landsraad is for Dukes, front gate is for non-Dukes. I don't see the point. And I can see it developing into Barons having power in the next year or so. So we've got to nip this in the bud!

Only if the Dukes gave it power.

And no. it's not essential. But it's something I've been trying to get made for several years now. Right now things are kinda chaotic in the Landsraad, with Dukes trying to vote, and barons popping in and out. If we set aside a place for barons, we could keep the main chamber for just dukes.

And the front gate was made for Non-nobles, not non-dukes. So this would make the Landsraad's main chamber for just dukes.

We are always trying to figure out how to deal with barons, short of giving them votes, this would give them some "power" without interfering with the powers of the dukes. and like I said, The Kehl would have no powers that the Dukes didn't give it. So if it did acquire powers in the next year, it means the dukes gave them to the Kehl.

Further, with a formal body for barons, it actually means that the rank of baron is a worthwhile rank to have, at least in appearance.

Smells like the first stap to de... demo... democracy!

I prefer the current status, there is the Landsraad for the Dukes and non-Dukes have the Front Gate.

But that is NOT how it works even now... The Landsraad is not for JUST dukes... Am I the only person who knows how the system works?

And it doesn't move us any closer to democracy. It still keeps ALL the power in the hands of the Dukes. All it does is create a lesser body that we could make use of later. It could be dissolved at any time by the Dukes...etc..etc..

To be honest, we don't even have any real reason NOT to do it. Yes, it is pointless. But outside that, there is no real reason not to do it.

Sounds confusing. The next thing should be a Council of Counts!

Erik Mortis wrote:Am I the only person who knows how the system works?

Am I the person who must answer that question?

Counts aren't nobles...So they aren't even part of the Imperial Government. Thus wouldn't even qualify for a council.

I like the Idea

To be honest, we don't even have any real reason NOT to do it. Yes, it is pointless. But outside that, there is no real reason not to do it.

I believe it has been a while since anyone got lairy about forums but... excess forums?

Only if the Dukes gave it power.

It would only take a few silly Dukes to give it that power... which is why I am against any such body existing in the first place. To create a rather tasty analogy (you'll get that in a moment), consider the Kehl as a plate and legislative power, food. If you place a plate on a table, SOMEONE is gonna think "Hmm, maybe I'll get meself some chikken" and put some food on that plate. If the plate were not there, that someone would not be tempted to get himself some chikken. Unless he's a messy eater.

I'm not against Barons having power, just direct power. I much prefer the idea of the economy system with erb being worth a vote.

I do observe that the Dukes, Benkern, could also remove those silly powers at any time.

And I also observe, Jonas, as does Erik, that the Landsraad is for Nobles. And unless a Council of Barons is created, I will keep sticking my nose into the Landsraad and commenting ... just warning you

Peoiple tend to comment when they care about something, or at least have a bon mot.

As far as I've noticed, Barons mostly try to butt into the Landsraad rather than the Front Gate, because there's kinda no designated area for them... Or I might be seeing things wrong. I could be wrong. Yeah. Maybe... >.>

This reminds me, I has no title... (aside from MiniEx)

If I were a Baron, however, I'd really have no strong feelings either way. I'd get my word in somewhere...whether I'm meant to be there or not...

Yes. The Dukes could give it power. And I admit I have some ideas on how that could and maybe should be done, that will please all. But as it stands I'm not asking for power, and the Dukes are not required to give any such powers.

Long have we sought a way to deal with the issue of Barons. This would provide the perfect platform for later ideas on how to give barons power if we wanted to, without infringing on the Dukes.

And I say again, the Dukes can REMOVE that power at any time. Further, as it will be created in the Lawbook, the Kehl could be dissolved by the Kaiser as well.

The forum issue I feel is not that great an issue, we could always make it a sub forum of the Landsraad if we were THAT worried about excess forums. I however am not at this time.

Perhaps I should actually write up some law so people can see a concrete things before, instead of this currently nebulous idea.

To be added to the Lawbook

Chapter ##: The Kehl

A. Definition and Subordination
1. There shall exist, within the Landsraad, a council of Barons known as The Kehl.
2. The Kehl shall consist solely of the Barons of the land.
3. The Kehl, being created by the Dukes of the Landsraad, is subordinate to the main body of the Landsraad.
4. The Dukes of the Landsraad, or the Kaiser, may dissolve or dismiss the Kehl at any time.
5. The Kehl, and its members, may not violate the Charter, Lawbook, Decreebook, or any imperial law or decree set forth by the Kaiser or Landsraad.

C. Powers and Restrictions
1. The Kehl has no authority over the Dukes of the land, the Landsraad as a whole, the ministers, or the Kaiser.
2. The Kehl may not edit, amend, or in any way change the Lawbook, nor the Procedures of the Landsraad.
3. The Kehl may create, without outside interference, its own internal rules and procedures.

D. Further Stipulations
1. The Praetor of the Landsraad may speak at will within the Kehl; as the head of the Landsraad as a whole, and a representative of the Dukes of the land.
2. Dukes, unless allowed by the Procedures of the Kehl, may not speak within the Kehl.
3. Barons, unless allowed by the Procedures of the Landsraad, may not speak in the Landsraad.
4. The Kehl, with permission from the Landsraad, may appoint a representative to speak for the council within the Landsraad.

This has:
-Created the Kehl
-Made it subordinate to the Landsraad.
-The Dukes/Kaiser may dismiss the Kehl at any time.
-The Kehl is completely bound by all imperial law.
-The Kehl has no power outside its hall.
-The Kehl can set its own rules.
-Restricted the Dukes from the Kehl. (unless allowed)
-Restricted the Barons from the Landsraad (unless allowed)
-Given the Praetor access to the Kehl.
-Given the Kehl a representative (no vote, no proposal power) in the Landsraad (if allowed)

After this I believe I need to look at the Procedures of the Landsraad, to restrict barons from speaking, voting, etc. and give the head of the Kehl a privilege to speak for the Kehl as a whole.

Upon reading the Procedures of the Landsraad I believe another overhaul is required. Ari got us on the right track with this set of procedures, but I think it is time to rewrite them to not make reference to the charter like it does, as that document is VERY basic. And we need to make the procedures a bit more specific. While Barons, Dukes and the Kaiser are all considered nobles and thus members of the Landsraad. I think we will need to delineate things a bit more. Especially if I can get this council idea to fly with people. (and even then...)

Andreas the Wise wrote:I do observe that the Dukes, Benkern, could also remove those silly powers at any time.

And I also observe, Jonas, as does Erik, that the Landsraad is for Nobles. And unless a Council of Barons is created, I will keep sticking my nose into the Landsraad and commenting ... just warning you

Ow, you're evil!

If the Praetor is president of the Council (so we don't create too much titles), and it hasn't any real power I maybe can agree...

Unless I'm missing something, this seems really, really, really useless.

So the Barons have a place to talk? Why is talking in the Kehl any different than talking in the Landsraad Front Gate?

If I were a Baron, I could not think of one possible reason I might ever use the Kehl. Consider - we have enough trouble getting any discussion or laws happening in the Landsraad, even though the Landsraad is actually important and affects the nation. To go through all those procedures and stuff when I knew it would have no effect - why? I'd rather just start a thread in General or Landsraad Front Gate, complaining about what the Dukes are doing.

I think this is a bad idea period, and should be scrapped in favor of some other method of Baronial influence (not that I have any better ideas than anyone else, of course). However, if you absolutely have to have it, you MIGHT salvage some point out of it by giving the Kehl as a whole a vote in the Landsraad equal to one or two Duchies.

Scott is absolutely right, except for that last paragraph where he went mad. Perhaps the altitude sickness has finally caught up with him.

Or maybe he's starting to see the light on that last one.

The Praetor would not be the head of the Kehl. No. That would kinda defeat the point. The Paetor works for the Dukes.

If anyone noticed how I wrote the law to create this. We could just make it, then just never implement it. As it's written, nothing ACTUALLY changed. But it would give us something to work with in the future. While it has no obviously point yet. I'm trying to lay down something that could be used later. I'm thinking a bigger picture then just a single government body with no powers.


And what ever happened to people's joy of trying new things? Experimenting, and having fun? Sure.. we'll create a economic voting system the causes all sorts of problems, and it a big mess. But we won't create a useless government body with no power, and that won't muck anything up what so ever.

Erik Mortis wrote:
And what ever happened to people's joy of trying new things? Experimenting, and having fun? Sure.. we'll create a economic voting system the causes all sorts of problems, and it a big mess. But we won't create a useless government body with no power, and that won't muck anything up what so ever.

I prefer that useless governement body with no power than this big mess...

Erik Mortis wrote:While it has no obviously point yet. I'm trying to ly down something that could be used later... And what ever happened to people's joy of trying new things? Experimenting, and having fun?

There's no experimentation to be had here. It's a Front Gate clone with an awesome name (credit where it's due ) and limited access. It's a platform, yes, but for something I personally don't want to see in Shireroth. Power to the (slightly extended group of) people! Bicameral legislative systems! This isn't Shireroth, and I don't want it to become Shireroth.

Why not experiment with something else... dolphins... or Soloralism...

Considering we have three pieces of legislature sitting in the landsraad which have been there for a month without completion, I think we should get the Landsraad working before adding another layer of government.

I have obviously failed again. I retract this idea. Again.

To be fair if you want we can put this before the Landsraad... but I genuinely think a) it won't be beneficial for anyone b) the Dukes will recognise this fact and vote against it.

Thus I have failed. And at this point I do not have the right to speak within the Landsraad.

And a point I wanted to make. A this time, the failure of the Landsraad is not one of system, but one of adherence to procedure, and implementation of the system we have. (disregarding the economic voting, as it's not passed at this time). The only reason the votes are still open, and unfinished is because the Praetor has failed to tally them as per the Procedures.