Shireroth

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:44 pm**

As Steward of Shireroth, Bearer of the Shield of Honor, I have no choice but to reluctantly take the following actions.

FIRST, Kaiser Hasan I is suspended from power. He has tentatively accepted power in Babkha (see the link below). One who has such power in another nation is a de facto citizen of that nation, and as such cannot be Kaiser of Shireroth. Any attempts to revise Shirerithian law by decree is hereby declared void.

I term this as a suspension, as there are possibilities that could resolve this issue. Until such time, I assume all Imperial power in Shireroth, and ask for the support of the nobles and people of Shireroth.

SECOND, there is a possibility that the coup in Babkha may be illegal. If so, we may be under obligation to assist the legitimate Shah of Babkha. I ask all Dukes to gather their forces as a precaution against all possibilities. I assume command of all Imperial forces.

THIRD, the current MoMA is suspended, pending resolution of the situation.

FOURTH, I offer Sfeir Jahangir Zsharri, Shah Rashiid and their associates sanctuary in Shireroth, pending events in Babkha.

FIFTH There are to be no aspersions of honor against any involved in the current situation. All those involved appear to acting out of reasonable motives. Myself included. However, it is my duty as Steward of Shireroth to preserve the independence of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth and to honor our obligations to our allies.

(Link: http://www.babkha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7729 )

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:34 pm**

This could be an over-reaction ... but I take it that the suspension of the Kaiser will end immediately when this matter is resolved? (assuming it is resolved that we keep him)

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:53 pm**

Shireroth cannot risk having our Supreme Ruler as Chief of State of another nation. I have suggested several options, and I am sure others will present themselves as creativity asserts itself.

I will hold the fort, but the fort will not be surrendered to foreign interests, no matter how friendly.

If Babkha wants our Kaiser, I suggest they become a Duchy.

I hope to hear from the Prophet and the spirit of administration.

If I am over-reacting, I may very well be discharged, but I will continue to do my duty.

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:47 pm**

Your stewardness, this may be overreacting ... I would think the question is far more of Babkhan independence from us than it is of us independent from Babkha ...

Still, it is generating some activity and excitement ...

Posted: **Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:43 pm**

I don't think this makes him a citizen of Babkha. The Queen of Britain technically rules Australia, but she's not an Australian citizen AFAIK. And there are several countries where the king is officially not a citizen, because citizen is defined as equal to "subject of the king". I bet back in the day there were feudal systems with even more examples of this sort of thing.

If Hesam wants to rule Babkha without being a citizen thereof, that's the Babkhans' problem, and it's their choice whether or not to object.

For the moment, Hyperborea stands behind Kaiser Hasan, and looks forward to a new era of Babkhan-Shirerithian relations.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:01 am**

It warms my heart to see such Hyperborean solidarity.

I don't think this makes him a citizen of Babkha.

!

Semantics. A nice dodge.
The simplest answer is for them to become a Duchy. Then all of the legal problems go away.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:57 am**

The Shahanshah of Babkha is not required to be a citizen, Scott is correct. I will make a full post on this matter shortly.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:03 am**

I will await the Kaiser's full details on the situation. I have brought it to public attention, now I can wait for those in authority to sort it out

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:05 am**

Alright, I will now expand.

First off, Lord Stewart.

I would like you to provide me a reference from law how it is you believe you can suspend your Sovereign from power. Considering I am not the Shah of Babkha and that I remain your Kaiser, you are treading a thin line between stalwart patriotism and treason.

Second, I will not recognize this decree, nor any other decree made by the Stewart until I have spoken with with the gods regarding this matter.

Third, it is not the position of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth to dictate or interfere with the interior workings of our allied nations. Benkern and Shahanshah Rashid are not being persecuted I can assure you. However, even if they were, the way to deal with this is through diplomacy, not half-cocked summary declarations on behalf of the Imperial Republic.

Lastly, Since no decisions have been made, I suggest we discuss this issue and debate the issues involved. Let's avoid rhetoric regarding Shahanshah Rashid or Benkern and stick to facts.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:59 am**

Straylight stands behind Kaiser Hasan I in this issue. Recall that I even supported Ric as Kaiser because I really like the idea of having the same person lead Shireroth and Babkha...

... that said, I do appreciate Jacobus's swift and efficient action. It might verge on a coup, but it shows that once Kaiser Hasan grows weary of leadership, Jacobus will make an excellent successor. It's just not the time to change the Kaiser yet.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:30 am**

Kaiser Hasan I wrote:I would like you to provide me a reference from law how it is you believe you can suspend your Sovereign from power. Considering I am not the Shah of Babkha and that I remain your Kaiser, you are treading a thin line between stalwart patriotism and treason.

Jacobus handled right, Your Niftiness.
I want to see laws or decrees where in is confirmed that you mustn't hold citizenship in Babhka.

If you see Jacobus action as treason, you're wrong.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:50 am**

The Kingdom of Babkha works off of precedent, and as such the ruling of The Shah. His agreement is considered "law" so to speak.

The following quote describes the case where The Shah is not a citizen of Babkha. The arguement is that since The Shah "owns" Babkha, itand it's subjects are his possession. As a result, The Shah cannot be considered a citizen since that would create a legal paradox where the Shah is subject to the law of the Government, which in turn is subject to The Shah.

Here:

I would like to present to His Imperial Majesty a claim which has been agreed upon through no small effort to regain His Imperial Majesty's rightful control of the Eura continent. Through this claim, the CIS will leave Eura and relocated to Lesser Eura. Riponia will move from Lesser Eura and relocate onto Appollonia. As I mentioned, this would achieve my charge as Atebeg of The Gate to defend His Majesty's Crown and Country and result in the near completion of the Reconquista.

However, the single stipulation is that to reach an agreement with Riponia we are required to cede the lands belonging to the Ostan of Razamin, located on the continent of Eura. By the Constitution of The Kingdom of Babkha, under Part 1. Article 1.(3) this act would be in violation of the law:

Quote:
(3) That the sovereignty of the realm shall be inalienable - no portion of Babkhan sovereignty or governance shall be ceded or gifted to any foreign polity, community or person by any authority of the Babkhan Realm.

And

Part 1. Article 2.(3)

Quote:

(3) The Kingdom cannot, and shall never, alienate any portion of His Imperial Majesty's Metropolitan Kingdom, whether through abandonment, evacuation, ceding to a foreign power or donation to any person or organisation not subject to His Imperial Majesty.

While this would be an act of severe contravention of the Law by a Babkhan Citizen, I would like to illustrate that His Imperial Majesty does not comprise a member of The Realm Of The Kingdom Of Babkha, but that His Majesty exists outside of the realm which remains His possession:

----------------------

Part 1. Article 1.(1)

Quote:
The Kingdom of Babkha shall be a sovereign realm under the Kapav Throne, that is a state held in trust from the founder of the Kingdom by all subsequent Shahanshahs in direct succession from Shah Babak Kapav.

-------------------------

Part 1. Article 1.(2)

Quote:

(2) The Babkhan Realm shall be composed of all the citizens of the Kingdom. The acquisition and loss of citizenship shall only be governed by an Act of Majlis.

---------------------------

Part 2. Article 5.1

Quote:
Every citizen is entitled to the fundamental rights and freedoms of the individual, that is to say, the right, regardless of race, place of origin, beliefs, or the manner of worship with which Zurvan is
honoured but subject to respect for the rights and freedoms of others and for the public interest, which shall be addressed in a Bill of Rights that shall be defined by an Act of the Majlis i-Satrapan.

----------------------------

Article 8.1 a) & b) of The Bill of Rights of The Kingdom of Babkha:

Quote:

Article 8

(1) This Bill of Rights applies
a) to the Majlis-i Satrapan of the Kingdom of Babkha and His Imperial Majesty´s Government in respect of all matters within the authority of the same including all matters relating to citizens of the Kingdom of Babkha in the Imperial Fiefs, the Crown Estates and all protectorates and dependencies of the Babkhan realm including occupied territories overseas and sovereign base areas leased from foreign powers; and
b) to the administration of the Ostans of the Kingdom of Babkha.

---------------------------------

It is evident in Part 1. Article 1.(1) of the constitution that The Realm Of The Kingdom Of Babkha is held UNDER The Throne of The Shahanshah.

And that in Part 1. Article 1.(2) That The REALM Of The Kingdom Of Babkha is composed of CITIZENS of the Kingdom.

That all citizens of The Kingdom of Babkha are guaranteed coverage by The Bill of Rights of the Kingdom of Babkha as stated in Part 2. Article 5.1 of the Constitution.

That in conclusion, His Imperial Majesty's actions cannot be subject to the law of The Realm of The Kingdomf Babkha because he is not a citizen of the realm as His Imperial Majesty is not covered by the Bill of Rights as noted in Article 8.1 a) & b) of The Bill of Rights of The Kingdom of Babkha.

In conclusion Your Majesty,

As Shahanshah Of The Kingdom Of Babkha and holder of The Realm of The Kingdom, His Majesty would be the only Babkhan who would be able to legally allow this transfer of land to occur by proclamation of an Imperial Farman. And as His Imperial Majesty's government has been dissolved, this Farman would not be subject to review by the Majilis, Cabinet or Grand Vizier.

As always, The future of The Kingdom exists by His Imperial Majesty's grace, and should it please HIM to allow the Reconquista to be achieved that The Kingdom would once again have a homeland on Eura, His Majesty need only proclaim via Farman posted in the palace, an endorsement of the claim being proposed here:

http://www.micromaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=711

I remain in humble service to H.I.M.

HIH Hesam Jahandar,

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:53 am**

I can't read it, Your Shahiness.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:54 am**

I've edited my post to include the direct quote. If you doubt it's credibility (and therefore mine) I will request that Babkha make that forum accessible for viewing.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:17 am**

Shireroth operates on law and custom, and is ruled by Shirerithian law, not by Babkhan.

Chapter V: The Kaiser
A: Requirements for the Kaisership
1: Dual Citizenship
a. The Kaiser of Shireroth may not hold citizenship or allegiance to any nation other than the Imperial Republic of Shireroth.

Ruling a country shows allegiance.

Hesam Jayatar
Qadi al-Shotor
GV Chief of Staff

Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 1371

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: X

Alright, since there is near consent on this, I tentatively accept. However I will wait until I hear back from Shireroth on their position. I suggest that should our current Shah return, this matter would be subject to his approval or denial. If he does return before the 5 weeks ends and wishes to remain on The Thrown, I state now that I would abdicate.

Behmanesh FarzAn
Grand Vizier
Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject:

At present then we accept a probationary period subject to the precedents established by Babkhan practice and the law as manifested in the VND's interpretation of the Civil Code.

I therefore hand over my office as Imperial Regent to Hesam Jayatar.

Thus since Hasan I has tenatively accepted sovereignty over Babkha, and as the LAW OF SHIREROTH tells us that he may not be Kaiser ...... hold citizenship or allegiance to any nation other than the Imperial Republic of Shireroth, then it is possible that he has tenatively abdicated as Kaiser of Shireroth by those actions.

Since it is quite possible that, tenatively, there is no Kaiser, I took up my lawful authority, and took precautionary action to secure the independence of Shireroth.

I am perfectly willing to stake my career in Shireroth on this. If the gods deem otherwise, and a Kaiser rules, he may certainly dismiss me, but I am no traitor.

That is why Hasan I is suspended rather than deposed.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:21 am**

You're right, Jacobus!

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:25 am**

ten·ta·tive Audio Help /t/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ten-tuh-tiv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-adjective 1. of the nature of or made or done as a trial, experiment, or attempt; experimental: a tentative report on her findings.
2. unsure; uncertain; not definite or positive; hesitant: a tentative smile on his face.

And I do not have allegence to Babkha. If I became Shah, Babkha would have allegence to me. As is the custom here. Shireroth remains my realm. All this would do, is add another realm to my Thrown. It would be different if I were the Stewart of Shireroth and the Grand Vizier of Babkha as those are government positions.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:34 am**

A wonderful tap-dance and twist of logic. Ruler and ruled have mutual obligations to one and other. That creates an allegiance of some kind.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:36 am**

Not in the case of Babkha, which is why it's Shah need not be a citizen. Anyone can be Shah. I would have thought you'd be please that Shireroth's Kaiser is being offered such an asset.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:45 am**

since your ascendancy to the throne I have accepted you as our leader and will continue to follow your command as kaiser . .

HOWEVER, as has been said before, Babkha may be ruled on precedent, Shireroth is traditional.

as such, from what I've seen the majority of our citizens recognize that the Kaiser has ONLY ever ruled Shireroth(during his reign) as citizen of only Shireroth.

Now, the tentative rule of Babkha, i have no objection too, HOWEVER, even tentatively, my reaction was also to ask you put your reign on hold until the issue was resolved,

if Babkha is in that dire of need of a leader, leave Jacobus in charge (cause thats his job) straighten things out, for they are now our soveriegn brethren and we wish them no ill will, then come on back and resume your rule.

i see nothing wrong with whats going on, i just think we should figure out whats best for both and if we cant agree, time to start making compromises,

but things like what a Kaiser can and cannot do in regards to membership of other nations, is very inflexable, as you might have noticed form the reaction.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:06 am**

As a Babkhan and a Shirerithian I think this is a bad move. But it seems like that is just me. Even so, good call Jacobus.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:46 am**

Thanks folks!

That is why I made things reversable.

Benkern, your Barony is bigger.....

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:04 pm**

I'm gonna point out the Steward cannot actually do part one of this little decree.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:10 pm**

That would be something interesting to put in front of the Arbiter. Has I've said elsewhere, iit was questionable whether the Kaiser was/is Kaiser.

I was doing my job. I will apologize for a lack of a lack of communication an the subject, but not for doing my duty. My job is to protect the nation when there is no Kaiser, and there may not have been.

This is best left for later, if we are going to clear this up.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:12 pm**

I believe Erik is the Arbiter.

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:35 pm**

We've shown this doesn't violate MCS policy. We've shown the Shah is not a citizen. The essential question is now from the Shirithian side -
Does being Shah of Babkha and Babkha not being a duchy of Shireroth count as the Kaiser not being fully devoted to Shireroth?
and
Does the Kaiser have time to devote himself fully to Shireroth and also succesfully function as the Shah of Babkha (because we wouldn't want the Babkhans to get a half-hearted ruler, since they're our allies)?

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:17 pm**

Yes, Yes, I am back...with no profanity.

I will come to every conflict as requested by the Naudia'Divan, Jess

I believe even allegence to Babkha would violate the Charter, which IS law. Being the Shashashashashashawhatever of Babkha would mean you have allegiance to Babkha, and not soley to Shireroth. Therefore by even pondering the idea of being Shashashashashasha of Babkha would break that ancient and sacred law. Therefore, Jacobus is temporary (if not permanent as defined by the last charter) Kaiser of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth. Jacobus therefore, when Hasan pondered (and reluctantly accepted) the Shashasha or whatever of Babkha, Jacobus automatically becomes Temporary Kaiser of Shireroth, therefore giving him the power to declare former Kaiser Hasan I dead of power (is he gonna be pardoned?). Therefor Jacobus is Kaiser, pick your name now...your niftyness!

All Hail Jacobus!!!

All Hail Jess!!!

All Hail Monsignor Edited!!!

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:27 pm**

Doesn't work that way...

Next time.. people ought bring it to my court...

Posted: **Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:32 pm**

You wanna challenge my control punk?

Who do you think you are?! Founder of Shireroth?!

Oh wait...sorry

Shireroth

not an imperial Decree for historical research

not an imperial Decree for historical research

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis

Re: Imperial Decree 282 - the Babkhan Crisis